Unable to post, Akismet says my post is spam
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@cregox said in Unable to post, Akismet says my post is spam:
...it would be a very pleasant surprise to discover discourse wasn't the first!
Ha! Not even close. Not by decades. Bulletin Boards have been around since what, the 80's? All that comes later, home grown scripts, first perl, then php, then a multitude of phb bulletin boards/forums - some stand alone, some incorporated into cms's, online learning, e.g. Atutor and Moodle - is merely evolution of the base concept. So we can make different kinds of wheels these days but that does not change the fact that every new model that claims to have "invented the wheel" are merely legends in their own minds.
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@gotwf said in Unable to post, Akismet says my post is spam:
@cregox said in Unable to post, Akismet says my post is spam:
...it would be a very pleasant surprise to discover discourse wasn't the first!
Ha! Not even close. Not by decades. Bulletin Boards have been around since what, the 80's? All that comes later, home grown scripts, first perl, then php, then a multitude of phb bulletin boards/forums - some stand alone, some incorporated into cms's, online learning, e.g. Atutor and Moodle - is merely evolution of the base concept. So we can make different kinds of wheels these days but that does not change the fact that every new model gets to claim to have "invented the wheel".
Yeah, the first ones I knew about were 1983. They were decently new then, but not new new.
From there to here has been evolution, not revolution. Much like how email hasn't changed under the hood, but how pretty the interface is has a bit.
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@julian said in Unable to post, Akismet says my post is spam:
@gotwf I think @cregox is referring to the "next generation" of forums, of which we are siblings of a sort.
There are only a few of that group that have reached critical mass as to become self-sustaining: NodeBB, Discourse, and Flarum.
Yep. All of which got evaluated by /me prior to rolling out NodeBB. Flarum would have been second choice, Discourse, last place.
And yeah, I did grok @cregox was talking about the latest gen but felt the need to chime in with some historical perspective.
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too often i also add textual data to things (like my own notes) without enough context and they get confusing... right now, unless i would clear this up and say i'm referring to how @gotwf brought up history without mentioning his point was just a spin off (i got confused there as well @julian), this whole paragraph would already be quite confusing even for my future self!
on another note: to me emails have no such evolution as did forums, at all. forget trying to define differences with revolution...
(we can find patterns in anything we want, and give them names. the fact that we do so and use common words instead of new names is a big reason for the babylonian communication we still live today. probably for good reasons, or else each tribe will of continue to have their own language. thank god for the dictionary attempt!)
i rather use a rating out of my ass, for this.
say since they were invented, emails have added some support for html, 1 point for that, and spam protection gets 2 full points. maintenance (it still works, it's still unique) gets 4 points. what else? i can't see any more meaningful standards. 7 points... not sure out of how many total yet. i'm devising this idea out of another similar system i've done...
as for forums, it's much more complex, because there was never a standardized protocol thought throughout... but that also brought more innovation! or have it? i'm writing out loud my thought process here, with little editing... they have added spam as well. 2p. and better html was more like a need, so zero points, but from that, to bbcode and markdown deserves 2p. maintenance is the same 4p as well. it's already superior at this point... then there was the before mentioned big overhaul of 2013. it is maintenance, but it's upgraded to 2.0, which email never did (and still needs to do). 2 easy p here. 10 points total...
i'm probably forgetting some criteria, so for control shall we think about another communication mean, say messaging... emoji 2p (nothing for improved formatting), spam 2p, still exist 2p (nothing for being so unique, it's way too fragmented)... i would give negative points for killing xmpp in favor of stupid proprietary protocols -2p... then there are audio, video and even recording sometimes, 2p... no points for making groups, as it never reached the gold standard that existed before, irc. and -1p for still having not a single solution that's open source and hassle free multi platform, like forums and emails do... then -2p for being almost impossible today to have a proper working backup out of what people use today (telegram, signal, viber, wechat, sms, and the obvious skype, google, facebook, whatsapp, am i missing something?)... backup only works if it's automated and spread out. like it's easy to do with good forums and any email. lol, 3 points in total... either messaging have changed almost nothing (compared to email and forums) or my criteria sucks balls. but it's the only one with negative points, so it's 8-5, which shows all it happened is it went more backwards than both.
just an over the top of my mind strokes on why i believe forums improved much more than email (and even messaging, apparently).
and, still, i would call scuttlebutt a revolution... really hope it'll adapt so people will catch it sooner than later. not even the mobile development have caught up enough to become compelling, yet.
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@cregox said in Unable to post, Akismet says my post is spam:
say since they were invented, emails have added some support for html, 1 point for that, and spam protection gets 2 full points. maintenance (it still works, it's still unique) gets 4 points. what else? i can't see any more meaningful standards. 7 points... not sure out of how many total yet.
None of that is email, though. They are extra systems that manage the email experience, but email itself hasn't changed. It's still just the SMTP messages being passed back and forth.
This makes it seem like email is evolving, but it isn't. The use of email is evolving, but that's different. Like my hammer examples.... people used to use a hammer one way when it was first released, now people use it in other ways. Same hammer. An email system from 1994 will be indistinguishable from one today to the end user, because all of the advancements you are perceiving as email are outside of the email portion and are like presentation layer or how end users use it or whatever.
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@cregox said in Unable to post, Akismet says my post is spam:
i'm probably forgetting some criteria, so for control shall we think about another communication mean, say messaging... emoji 2p (nothing for improved formatting), spam 2p, still exist 2p (nothing for being so unique, it's way too fragmented)... i would give negative points for killing xmpp in favor of stupid proprietary protocols -2p... then there are audio, video and even recording sometimes, 2p... no points for making groups, as it never reached the gold standard that existed before, irc. and -1p for still having not a single solution that's open source and hassle free multi platform, like forums and emails do... then -2p for being almost impossible today to have a proper working backup out of what people use today (telegram, signal, viber, wechat, sms, and the obvious skype, google, facebook, whatsapp, am i missing something?)... backup only works if it's automated and spread out. like it's easy to do with good forums and any email. lol, 3 points in total... either messaging have changed almost nothing (compared to email and forums) or my criteria sucks balls. but it's the only one with negative points, so it's 8-5, which shows all it happened is it went more backwards than both.
Similarly, almost everything here isn't really changes to the forum concept, they are just (mostly) presentation layer artefacts of modern interfaces. Displaying embedded video, for example, doesn't happen in the forum but in the end user's browser. If I was to make a new "forum viewer" tool for people, and let them look at 1980s forums, we could do the same things with emoji, videos, images, audio, and so forth. Backups, groups, email, spam management... all things you could keep with a 1980s forum.
My point being, it's not like it's a revolution or a new generation or product, it's just a new forum in the general sense. That's not a bad thing, just like it isn't bad that email hasn't had a revolution - the base concept is so solid and stable that you can use it however you want in a modern context without needing a new generation or whatever.
I think what I'm trying to say is that when you look at something like a forum and perceive it as the "interface to the forum" or in email as the "application that displays the email", it's easy to feel like things have changed dramatically. But when you look at the application and the basics are the same, just a new implementation, that's where you can determine if there is a new generation or approach or whatever. Because, like with email, we can always apply a new interface to an old forum.
In fact, you could take a 1980s dial up BB system, write a text parser (pretty easily), and use that as a backend and make a display system that exactly mimics NodeBB's default and you'd not be able to tell which was which. It would be weird and a waste of effort, but you could do it and people would think you had a new forum with cool features like emoji, image emedding, video auto-play, and all that stuff. But it's just the in browser interface portion, not the forum.
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it's much easier (rather than writing software) to prove you wrong again, @scottalanmiller ... in all your points there, namely the hammer, the bbs and the forums (already did that, all you're doing is playing with names).
but i'll leave even the most of that work (of proving) to the readers imagination (which may include yours, of course), instead of grabbing pictures of hammers (as i might have, if i cared more for this).
picture a hammer as just a piece of wood. that's for sure the first hammer. it couldn't hammer a nail, but it could jam together something.
then a more modern one, with metal. it's the typical hammer.
now a drill, with combustion. much bigger nails, very different.
now an electric hammer, able to be much stronger (than the regular one) and precise (than any hammer before). completely different.
then micro hammers. no idea how those are called, but they can now hammer small needless in a magnetic disk, to create something yet completely different.
you're wrong once again.
hammers went a long way.
i'm probably wrong from your point of view as well. but i'm the one bringing my point of view first and just giving my perspective. you don't need to attack me EVERYTIME you see it wrong. or even if you feel you're not doing it enough times, i'm telling you very clearly now: it's beyond too much.
right now i just wished i had a filter for your name so i wouldn't feel compelled to chime in. since the tool doesn't offer this, i'm conditioning myself to do it.
good luck calling my attention to write to you next time, if that's a deep dark wish of yours.
very bold, right? aggressive even? but at least transparent.
cheers!
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@cregox said in Unable to post, Akismet says my post is spam:
it's much easier (rather than writing software) to prove you wrong again, @scottalanmiller ... in all your points there, namely the hammer, the bbs and the forums (already did that, all you're doing is playing with names).
but i'll leave even the most of that work (of proving) to the readers imagination (which may include yours, of course), instead of grabbing pictures of hammers (as i might have, if i cared more for this).
picture a hammer as just a piece of wood. that's for sure the first hammer. it couldn't hammer a nail, but it could jam together something.
then a more modern one, with metal. it's the typical hammer.
now a drill, with combustion. much bigger nails, very different.
now an electric hammer, able to be much stronger (than the regular one) and precise (than any hammer before). completely different.The difference there is that you are changing the thing. The point of the hammer analogy is that.... the tool didn't change. How we use it changed, but there isn't the jump from the hammer to the drill or anything like that, which I went into detail explaining and you are now overlooking as if I didn't write it. The whole point of what I wrote is that change didn't happen.
You are acting like there has been some huge change in these products when the products themselves are effectively identical to what they've always been.
You understand that a hammer to a drill is both a huge leap in technology as well as tools that act different and serve different purposes. Could something be more opposite than something like email where literally no change whatsoever has happened... which I pointed out in detail so that this kind of confused response shouldn't have happened?
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@cregox said in Unable to post, Akismet says my post is spam:
you don't need to attack me EVERYTIME you see it wrong. or even if you feel you're not doing it enough times, i'm telling you very clearly now: it's beyond too much.
I didn't attack you. I was simply explaining why we weren't seeing these generation leaps that you were claiming (which you referred to as forks, remember, which is a totally different thing than you are explaining now) because under the hood, no real change was happening. That the changing of perception or interface outside of the product isn't the same as changing the product, or changing how it is used (using a hammer to remove nails instead of pounding them doesn't change the hammer itself) so when you act like we should just know that there is a new generation why we are lost and aren't following your logic.
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@cregox said in Unable to post, Akismet says my post is spam:
good luck calling my attention to write to you next time, if that's a deep dark wish of yours.
No, I have no wish that you post anything. You've not posted anything honest or helpful, but only misleading, self serving vitriol. Attempting to undermine NodeBB and its users for some sort of self gratification. If we can't convince you to be at least honest, let alone helpful and valuable, then the next best thing is not getting responses. As you clearly don't care to learn and improve, I have no desire that you even read my responses.
I respond only so that others who may stumble here can never have an excuse to believe what you write due to a lack of rebuttal and explanation.
