Honestly, if you’re in the US, please vote.

Ben Royce 🇺🇸🇺🇦 Don't Boo: Vote

@Amoshias @gwm @barney @firebreathingduck @GreenFire @fiberologist @WAHa_06x36 @Gargron

the account is bot-like

they pick up a gist of a comment, and reply with well known boilerplate disinfo talking points, with flat emotional effect, like reading off a list

the account simply ignores any point that renders their lies evident. even if repeated

beyond dishonesty, that points to a behavior pattern which is cold influence operation rather than genuine human being trying to engage

Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:

@bot23 @gwm @ducksauz @WAHa_06x36 @johnstonphilip @benroyce @Mourioche
At the end of the day, there are things we can get and things we can't get. That is a problem with the two-party system, which I think we can get rid of within the next decade or so if we can just elect Kamala Harris this time. The choice is between more genocide, on top of all the other horrible things Trump and his allies are promising to do, and a path to peace, on top of all the other positive things that Harris offers.

Once again, the difference is night and day.

People cannot be sitting this election out.

George Maschke

@benroyce @Amoshias @barney @firebreathingduck @GreenFire @fiberologist @WAHa_06x36 @Gargron You don't really think I'm a bot, do you? I'm posting here with my real name. You can Google me, and even call if you like (I'm gwm.11 on Signal).

Ben Royce 🇺🇸🇺🇦 Don't Boo: Vote

@gwm @Amoshias @barney @firebreathingduck @GreenFire @fiberologist @WAHa_06x36 @Gargron

you elicit a patterrn of behavior which is indicative of your motivations

i have multiply stated the value of a 3rd party vote in an fptp voting system- it divides the left and helps trump win

you just ignore it

because you're not interested in honest engagement

you're interested in shilling talking points

so you are an operator as part of an agenda not a genuine person sharing your honest views

George Maschke

@benroyce @Amoshias @barney @firebreathingduck @GreenFire @fiberologist @WAHa_06x36 @Gargron No, I just happen to think you're wrong about third parties. While they may attract some voters away from the candidates of the duopoly, they also attract persons who would not otherwise vote. That someone may have a different view than you does not entail that they are arguing in bad faith, or must somehow be a foreign agent.

Beachhart

@gwm @benroyce @Amoshias @barney @firebreathingduck @GreenFire @fiberologist @WAHa_06x36 @Gargron

So are you pushing for third party at the school board level? City council? State level?

There is no point to a third party president if she immediately would have to turn to one of the two parties to get literally anything done.

Third parties take work at the bottom. Top down approaches have never worked. I don't know that a single example exists of it working.

George Maschke

@Beachhart @benroyce @Amoshias @barney @firebreathingduck @GreenFire @fiberologist @WAHa_06x36 @Gargron I support third party candidates in local elections as well.

Beachhart

@gwm @benroyce @Amoshias @barney @firebreathingduck @GreenFire @fiberologist @WAHa_06x36 @Gargron

Good. Then if you can be pragmatic, you should be pragmatic here and vote Harris at the top of the ticket.

This is not the election to fuck around with. If Trump is elected you won't get to vote third party again. Or at all.

George Maschke

@Beachhart @benroyce @Amoshias @barney @firebreathingduck @GreenFire @fiberologist @WAHa_06x36 @Gargron Trump was elected before, and he was voted out of office after four years. I think the situation is not so dire as you suggest.

Mastodon Migration VOTED

@gwm @firebreathingduck @benroyce @barney @GreenFire @fiberologist @WAHa_06x36

These are all lofty sounding phases, but earlier today you settled on the rationale that you did not think either candidate would be better for Palestinians. You don't seem to be able to sustain that point in light of all the evidence to the contrary, so you are back to word salad. The truth is you're putting the people you profess to support at risk of more harm, and no principles are going to change that.

firebreathingduck

@benroyce

I have been voting in the primaries, and I'll continue to. But in the general? No. Not if the person in the general election is all in on war, oil, and oligarchy.

Ben Royce 🇺🇸🇺🇦 Don't Boo: Vote

@firebreathingduck

you vote in both

because you're smart enough (right?) to understand if the GOP wins it will be even worse

it is about moving in a direction, not standing at perfect and crossing your arms and pouting until the world magically matches your ideology

you are doing nothing but articulating a rationale for impotence

Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:

@Gargron
As Server Staff and people who are trying to grow the Fediverse, we need to come out and be clear about this: a Trump presidency will not only be disastrous for the country, but for the Fediverse itself, and democratic and pro-free-speech movements in general.

It has been made clear that Trump WILL give Elon Musk, the very person many people came here to get away from, direct influence over the FCC and FEC, regulatory agencies which are not only critical to the operation of a free and fair internet, but which have the ability to directly threaten our American servers and staff members.

If the US citizens here do not get out and VOTE FOR KAMALA HARRIS, we are going to see a LOT of problems for the network.

And if y'all have friends who may be on the fence, go talk to them, offer to go to the polls with them, do whatever it takes to get as many of our fellow US Citizens to get out and VOTE FOR KAMALA HARRIS as possible!

Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:

@nicdex
Do you want to just go ahead and endorse Kamala Harris as a server? I could write out a whole thing about why Elon Musk getting control of the FCC and Trump going after free speech would be a threat to us.

firebreathingduck

@benroyce

"it is about moving in a direction"

"a" direction, not "an acceptable" direction. I'm not talking about heading towards perfect, I'm talking about heading any way other than exactly where the people running the DNC want to go.

"You'll do exactly what we want, the way we want it, or leave."

That's impotence. 24 years of the party walking rightwards while my primary votes go to people that get crushed and my general election votes get good judges (yay!) and 800 billion dollar military budgets, drone strikes, and genocides. Year, after year, after year, after year.

Keep telling me to stay the course, it will magically fix things. The same thing I heard in 2012. 2016. 2020.

Maybe you're the DNC bot.

Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:

@firebreathingduck @fiberologist @gwm @benroyce @WAHa_06x36 @baconandcoconut
To clarify, the argument that we are making, and said "we" includes most Muslim/Palestinian groups, is not simply that Trump would be worse, but that Harris presents us an actual path to ending this: she has repeatedly voiced support for a ceasefire, repeatedly pressured Biden to take a stronger stance on this, and is one of the main voices in the administration's support for food and medical aid. Note that Biden has repeatedly set up negotiations, and gave Netanyahu a 30-day ultimatum on significant de-escalation 15 days ago.

So no, while they aren't as aggressive as many of us would like, I would not say they are pro genocide. They are, in the words of many palestinians, "our only hope".

...and if you don't want to listen to a queer and disabled person begging you to stop throwing us under the bus and vote for Kamala Harris, have some actual Palestinian groups...

Just a moment...

(znetwork.org)

Ben Royce 🇺🇸🇺🇦 Don't Boo: Vote

@firebreathingduck

if #voting participation were higher i would agree with you

but it isn't

people who do not #vote are responsible for the #democrats' shift right

your entire shtick is "people don't vote so the democrats move right so i won't vote either, that will fix it"

🤪

luckily #trump is putting a fire in our bellies, and participation is going up

and it will be on them we finally get #progress

it won't be on you

you'll whine and achieve nothing

thanks for that, impotent

Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:

@spieldings
No, @Gargron means the candidate and surrounding people literally giving speeches about how "democracy dies here", that wants to do a multitude of crazy things, which not only include scaling back the democracy, but also going after free speech itself, and pretty commonly move to targeting minorities with crazy misinformation.

He's talking about the person whose own generals and original staff have all signed letters repeatedly saying that he is a fascist and a threat to the country itself.

firebreathingduck

@Raccoon @fiberologist @gwm @benroyce @WAHa_06x36 @baconandcoconut

Again, I voted for Harris (by mail), and Biden, and Clinton, and Obama, and Kerry, and Gore.

But I absolutely do not trust any claims that Harris will do better with respect to the Palestinian people. The timing is suspect - the Biden Administration has been sending weapons as recently as September. Now that the Palestinian genocide issue might affect the election, suddenly the people defending Israel against UN Security Council resolutions, pushing for censorship of anti-IDF media, and sending 17.9 billion in military aid for the purpose of slaughtering Palestinians suddenly grew a conscience? Nonsense. Absolute nonsense.

I would absolutely love to be wrong. It would be the best thing that happened in the world in the past decade if Biden or Harris follow through and pressure Israel to stop. If it happens, I will be celebrating from the rooftops - and voting for Harris again next time. You have my word (for what that's worth).

But I'm 90% sure Biden and Harris will give speeches about humanitarian concerns and then send Israel more weapons.

firebreathingduck

@benroyce

I never said "not voting". I agree that "not voting" is pointless. I said voting third party. Or writing in candidates. That's what sends the message that voters are engaged but unsatisfied by the DNC's march to the right.

(Again, for anyone jumping into the thread late - I voted by mail for Harris. I'm talking about the future.)