With respect to #ActivityPub

Jenniferplusplus

@benpate
I only have 460 characters, so, briefly:

1. requires breaking interoperability. full stop. Sending in strict mode means peers that don't know what strict mode is won't understand the message
2. this is what AP already specifies. But most people don't want SN apps to be mail clients, so real world implementations drop that req.
3. I still don't know what a peer could or should do with that information

1/

@puppygirlhornypost2 @sebinthestars @hrefna @lily

Jenniferplusplus

@benpate
4. Sure, I've wanted a spec-defined federated authentication mechanism since forever. It needs to preserve the privacy of private messages.
5. Yes, I've wanted reply controls since forever. This is a socio-mastodon problem, more than a technical/protocol one.
6. see next post
7. This is also the way that AP is already specified. You can already build an AP mailbox server and punt all of the intelligence to the client.

2/
@puppygirlhornypost2 @sebinthestars @hrefna @lily

Jenniferplusplus

@benpate
We keep going in circles on these things because no one knows what activitypub *is*, and there's no common understanding of what we want it to be.

If it's a public micropublishing framework, then ATProto is a better implementation of that. If it's a distributed graph sync, then zot, and leaf, and ATProto are a better implementation of that.

3/

@puppygirlhornypost2 @sebinthestars @hrefna @lily

Jenniferplusplus

@benpate
The only thing that AP is (or could be) that others aren't is a directed, scoped, messaging system. Optionally, but not necessarily public. Usually, but not necessarily consistent.

Personally, I think that's great.

But that means things like moving accounts along with their content will necessarily be imperfect, because that content was created in an entirely different trust context that cannot be made fungible.

4/4
@puppygirlhornypost2 @sebinthestars @hrefna @lily

Helge

I created a topic: Wiki: Vision for a Fedi Specification at discuss.coding.social to start developing a vision.

Jenniferplusplus

@benpate
Anyway, I'm strongly in favor of messages with a defined schema. Just be aware it's not doable in a backward compatible way.

And I'm strongly in favor of a defined method for *3rd parties* to resolve inconsistencies. Some other server can ignore my reply restrictions, and there's no way to stop them. I want 3rd parties to know that was out-of-spec and should be discarded.

5/4
@puppygirlhornypost2 @sebinthestars @hrefna @lily

Ben Pate 🤘🏻

This is a great suggestion, and discussion around it. We're far from working through the specifics, but I've made a note in my original document that we should (suggest?) the use of standard HTTP caching and rate limiting headers. We can work out the details when we get there, and put together a protocol that makes sense.

@lily @puppygirlhornypost2 @jenniferplusplus @hrefna @sebinthestars

Ben Pate 🤘🏻

This is a good point, and I don't have everything worked out, here. HTTP signatures are consistently the #1 pain point, so I'm looking for some kind of solution.

In theory, I'd like DMs to be E2E encrypted, so posting them anywhere in plaintext already seems like an anti-pattern. But, that would be an even bigger hurdle to jump in a project that's probably too ambitious, already.

@kopper @hrefna @jenniferplusplus @sebinthestars @puppygirlhornypost2 @lily

Ben Pate 🤘🏻

The primary question, now, is: "Do we think we should have a discussion about HTTP signatures, and various ways to replace them?"

I'm not committed to simply throwing them away with no replacement, but, by including this in the discussion it seems like the answer to the primary question is "yes". We may not have good solutions, and we may not even have a consensus, but it sounds like we should have a discussion.

@hrefna @jenniferplusplus @kopper @sebinthestars @puppygirlhornypost2 @lily

smallcircles (Humanity Now 🕊)

@helge

Wonderful!

I made you moderator on the forum so turn posts into wiki, etc. I both fedi DM'ed and forum Whispered to you about that yesterday, but not sure if that arrived in good order?

@hrefna

smallcircles (Humanity Now 🕊)

@benpate @lily @jenniferplusplus @puppygirlhornypost2 @hrefna @helge

FYI Helge has followed-up with a topic to collect our ideas for vNext social web and define a vision.

Wiki: Vision for a Fedi Specification

Social Web Protocol Considerations Wiki Post. Please Participate! First read the Introduction by @helge. Status → :brain: Brainstorming. Gathering feedback. Contents :muscle: Co-creation log …

Discuss Social Coding (discuss.coding.social)

Helge

Thanks for the push again. Currently, I'm in a state of self doubt if I actually wrote what needs to be written. This means I prefer taking it slow.

However, I'm bad at organizing and getting people involved. So it's probably better to use wider announcements? Not sure.

Seb Potter

@benpate @puppygirlhornypost2 @hrefna @jenniferplusplus @lily

Looking at the key issues discussed, I am not sure I'm thinking in the same direction. These suggestions feel like they're more focused on the UX of implementations, and not addressing shortcomings of AP as a protocol. I am generally aligned with what @jenniferplusplus is saying, particularly the lack of stated goals being the main driver of divergence in implementation. Adding more client capabilities just hides the fact there's no accepted answer here.

Seb Potter

@benpate @puppygirlhornypost2 @hrefna @jenniferplusplus @lily That's not to say this isn't a useful and valid discussion, I just don't think these points will solve AP's deeper issues.

smallcircles (Humanity Now 🕊)

@helge @hrefna

Taking it slow is good. I think there's no hurry as long as we keep making some concrete steps.

We've all had very long period of fleety discussions, some of us taken concrete notes, or even doing serious legwork. There should be enough input to be collected and distilled into some comprehensive format.

Ben Pate 🤘🏻

@sebinthestars @puppygirlhornypost2 @hrefna @jenniferplusplus @lily

Thanks for this! What would you say are AP’s biggest shortcomings? What would be the goals/principles that we SHOULD follow?

This list is primarily from my own experience. I’m posting it as a way to start this conversation.

There’s already tons of great feedback that I need to incorporate, so please help me with this, too.

smallcircles (Humanity Now 🕊)

@benpate @lily @jenniferplusplus @puppygirlhornypost2 @hrefna @helge

FYI My own first feedback: https://discuss.coding.social/t/wiki-vision-for-a-fedi-specification/563/6