I thought the Vice President responded to the protestors in Phoenix with respect.
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@BobLefridge @alpinefolk It's not Netanyahu, its more American Jewish voters (many of whom support a ceasefire).
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Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:replied to DrD on last edited by
@NZedAUS @BobLefridge @alpinefolk
Just a reminder that Kamala Harris has been talking about the need for a ceasefire ASAP for quite a few months now.I think the assumption that she'll go back on that and won't do anything about it once elected, or even that Biden won't start pushing it harder once the election is over, is a bit too cynical.
I find it especially concerning that I've read multiple Palestinians and aid workers begging Americans to vote for Kamala Harris, because they don't see any other path to peace, and it feels like we have a bunch of Americans who've never even been to the Middle East shouting over them.
Harris says she ‘will not be silent’ on Gaza suffering while telling Netanyahu to get ceasefire deal done | CNN Politics
Vice President Kamala Harris vowed to “not be silent” about suffering in Gaza amid the Israel-Hamas war, saying she expressed her “serious concern” to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu Thursday while telling him it is time to lock down a ceasefire deal.
CNN (www.cnn.com)
Harris tells pro-Palestine protesters ‘now is time for ceasefire’ in Gaza
People chanted ‘Free, free Palestine’ during Democratic presidential candidate’s speech at Arizona rally.
Al Jazeera (www.aljazeera.com)
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@NZedAUS
> in a democracy they can continue to heckle but they've made their point.I disagree. Moving America's Overton Window on IsraPal will require persistent retail politics, which is to say embarrassing public shouting until there’s evidence that their concerns are getting attention (there isn’t yet). Probably they won’t change any policies pre-election, but they need to make it clear they’ll be an ongoing presence that’s hard to silence.
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Alexander Hamizdat for Harrisreplied to Tim Bray on last edited by
@timbray @NZedAUS that vastly oversimplifies the issue. The way rank and file Dems support Harris shutting down the protesters the more it becomes clear how much she rusks by giving in to their demands.
She needs to exercise leadership and that's approximately opposite to doing whatever people are shouting at you.
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Tl;dr: You don’t change long-term bedrock policies by having a single polite meeting with a politician.
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Tim Brayreplied to Alexander Hamizdat for Harris on last edited by
I don’t believe for a second that she’ll change course between now and the election.
I also don’t believe that having activists shouting at her occasionally will change a single vote, either way. But it might affect Harris administration policy choices.
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Alexander Hamizdat for Harrisreplied to Tim Bray on last edited by
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Tim Brayreplied to Alexander Hamizdat for Harris on last edited by
Sadly, I think you’re 100% right. In the current political climate, pushing back against the protestors probably wins her votes. Another reason why I think it’s highly appropriate to keep up the shouting as long as Israel keeps up the slaughtering.
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Katanova, the Forest Nomadreplied to Tim Bray on last edited by
@timbray They're not going to get anywhere on substantive policy statements unless they can convince the Kamala Harris campaign that their support is more than enough to negate AIPAC.
Unless they do that, they're not going to get what they want.
AIPAC is much more effective at smearing politicians and driving negative press than the collective efforts of pro-palestine protesters.
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Katanova, the Forest Nomadreplied to Katanova on last edited by
@timbray "You should be more afraid of us than the other guy" may be an effective tactic to get something resembling what you want, if you're actually right.
But it's not an effective way to get a seat at the table.
And if you're successful in a harassment campaign to achieve an objective, you certainly won't be effective a second time.
Big stick diplomacy only works when you've got the bigger stick.
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Katanova, the Forest Nomadreplied to Katanova on last edited by
@timbray
And on top of that, "big stick diplomacy" doesn't work if you say "I'm going to use the stick if you don't talk to me" and then they talk with you, and you use the stick anyway.All you do is prove yourself to be an untrustworthy counterparty.
I really get it. I used to be an anarchist filled with anger and frustration at all the shitty things that never seem to end.
Your anger will not be sated by forcing other people to listen.
@NZedAUS @kamalaharrisforpresidentnews -
@timbray @NZedAUS @kamalaharrisforpresidentnews Protesting Kamala Harris has got to be the single dumbest thing the pro-Palestinian protesters can do if they're legitimately concerned about the future of the Palestinian people. I mean, talk about pissing in your own face! They should be doing everything they can to ensure Trump doesn't prevail, and that means supporting his one opponent. Their bullshit antics are the epitome of counterproductive.
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@slcw @kamalaharrisforpresidentnews @timbray @NZedAUS The point is to make the Harris/Walz campaign make a firm statement on a ceasefire NOW, to hopefully bring about the end of Palestinians suffering in Gaza.
The campaign cannot be wishy-washy on this. It hurts them to be vague. The people who want to allow the Palestinians to continue to suffer are voting for Trump anyway.
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@knova @kamalaharrisforpresidentnews @timbray @NZedAUS Not gonna happen. Maybe it would have had these petulant protesters acted like civilized adults, but that's not what they're doing. If they think they can bully their way to achieving their goals, there's a whole lot of disappointment in their future. They're hurting their cause, and the Palestinian people by behaving this way. They're not getting a damn thing through bullying and force.
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@slcw @kamalaharrisforpresidentnews @timbray @NZedAUS You sound awfully confident, but the campaign has had to stop and acknowledge them multiple times. Seems to be working.
Harris will not lose voters by taking a firm stance on Israel’s genocidal campaign. Those voters are already hoping Trump gets in and gives the green light to Netanyahu to keep going. It only benefits the Harris campaign to make a decision now about not supporting Israel’s genocide.
Every day they stay on the fence is a day Trump’s campaign can use it as a wedge. That won’t be the fault of the protestors.
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@knova @kamalaharrisforpresidentnews @timbray @NZedAUS Harris is not on the protesters' side. She's not going roll over and acquiesce to their demands just because they keep showing up to scream at her and interrupt her speeches. That shit simply does not work. These protesters need to decide if they actually care about the Palestinian people, or if it's just a basis for them to yell and act rowdy. The Palestinians are done if Trump wins, so It's time for the petulance to stop.
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Lee Fife - old accountreplied to SLCW💥 on last edited by
@slcw @timbray @NZedAUS @kamalaharrisforpresidentnews exactly right.It's easy to be irresponsible and feel good about counter productive protesting, esply if you're not going to vote in this election....
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Stybba3019replied to Lee Fife - old account on last edited by
@colo_lee @slcw @NZedAUS @kamalaharrisforpresidentnews
In the end, this isn't the only issue for the majority of voters. It is important to most Dem voters but may not be the most critical one. It isn't something that can be done by fiat, which the hecklers don't seem to want to accept. It takes so little to destroy what others are trying to build. Too many malign forces keep ripping away hope of peace because chaos suits them better.
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Alexander Hamizdat for Harrisreplied to Stybba3019 on last edited by
@Stybba3019 @colo_lee @slcw @NZedAUS @kamalaharrisforpresidentnews surveys say Gaza is the #1 issue for approximately 3% of Democratic voters.
We should call them "Three Percenters".
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Risottoreplied to Alexander Hamizdat for Harris on last edited by
@alexhammy @Stybba3019 @colo_lee @[email protected] @NZedAUS @kamalaharrisforpresidentnews being a # 1 issue for a small group doesn't mean it isn't a lower priority but still important optics for a lot of others
but yeah probably civil rights, the economy, democracy, rule of law at home outrank foreign affairs and genocide abroad...
biden didn't want to forgive student debt during the campaign. he flat out told a town hall question no.
however, due to constant public pressure he changed his tune in the administration.
it's /okay/ to pressure politicians to be better. billionaires won't stop pressuring them. the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
by demonstrating that the Uncommitted movement had a sizable unified voting block (in an election that could go south), Harris kinda has to consider them as a factor. (e.g., the VP pick)
does she need to be perfect? no.
is it in the bag and the campaign can rest? hell no.
are protesters who ask for human rights to be respected similar to oligarchs? absolutely fucking not.