Fascists love Star Wars. Even though the whole point of Star Wars is that fascists suck, and that the universe would be better without them.
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What the movie imho does quite nicely is the construction and deconstruction of the "us vs them" worldview. It shows how the protagonists ends up with an "us vs them" worldview, how he gets dominated by it, how it fails him as there is not really an "us". How the protagonists overcomes it. And how the "us vs them" still ruins him as its an self-reinforcing dynamic.
It's sometimes a bit heavyhanded, but imho it's quite consistent.
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And yes, the movie takes artistic liberties to take the viewer on this ride and tell it in the length of a movie.
Most nazis don't experience violence by PoC. They like this "defender" view, but in reality aren't under attack.
And this "the violence gets back to you" is a nice story. In reality, the nazis don't have to worry about revenge attacks. (To me, this stands out more than the location of the revenge attack.)
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@billiglarper this is an incoherent justification for putting the dangerous, racist clichΓ© of Black people as violent predators--one that literally kills Black people routinely--into a movie. You say it's worth painting Black people as a violent "them" in order to convey the message that "us vs them" doesn't work. But painting Black people as a violent "them" is a thing that happens every day in the USA*, causing not just police killings but also racist harassment, interpersonal violence, stress, and more. It's a "eating your cake and having it too" situation.
Are Black people real people whose lives matter? If so then this trade-off isn't worth it. If not then, well, we get your take. I can't see into your soul to know if this take reflects your true beliefs, so maybe the racism you've shown here is accidental, thoughtless. I dunno, though. You seem pretty committed.
*Edit: just noticed that Billiglarper is not USian @mekkaokereke @ricci
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@billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci can you explain why the racist clichΓ© portrayal of Black people is "okay" to you? Please address explicitly how it impacts people's ongoing negative perception of Black people. And then talk about what elements of the movie you feel effectively offset that harm in order to make it "okay" in your book.
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Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:replied to Sally Strange last edited by
@SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci
What's really weird about this defense of the movie is, even though I haven't seen that movie in years, I seem to recall that there are several black characters in it who are not criminals. Like the teacher who tells the younger brother to write the paper to try and redirect him, or the guy the older brother meets in prison, or the Jewish teacher or the Asian store. Also, he is attacked by White supremacists in prison, after which The Black gang leaves him alone, which I think is trying to make a point too.I think Mekka's point has a very obvious reality to it here: a movie that portrays black characters as predominantly criminal, rather than the main characters as retaliating against a predominantly innocent demographic for the behaviors of individuals, doesn't make a strong argument against racism itself. My response would be to ask Mekka, how do you think it could have done this better?
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Lux :flag_genderfluid:replied to Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon: last edited by
@Raccoon @SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci are you ready to hear : don't do it? Ever?
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@billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci for the record, Bill declined to answer my question publicly. I personally found the private explanation lacking.
I respect the choice to shy away from the public conversation. These are difficult topics, and most people aren't really equipped to navigate them. I do think it's messed up that people feel comfortable jumping in and making excuses for Black stereotypes but then not take responsibility for helping to perpetuate a world that keeps leaning on them.
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Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:replied to Lux :flag_genderfluid: last edited by
@orange_lux @SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci
...I'm confused... do you mean "don't make a movie about racism"? I'm wondering if maybe my post wasn't clear... -
Lux :flag_genderfluid:replied to Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon: last edited by
@Raccoon @SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci not "don't make a movie about racism", but more like "if you want to portray your main character as a far-right activist, don't do it".
Even if the scenario was better handled like you suggested, the main issue remains : real-world far-right activists will praise the looks of the movie before its message.
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mekka okereke :verified:replied to Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon: last edited by
@Raccoon @[email protected] @billiglarper @ricci
Great question.
Many ways.
If they wanted to make a movie that showed the futility of white supremacist violence, without reinforcing the most harmful, untrue, racist fever dream stereotypes about Black people, with a sympathetic protagonist, and Hollywood action movie glorification of horrific violence, "Shot Caller," is a much better movie.
Shot caller trailer:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QQxjyRr9k2EThere are barely any Black people in this movie.
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mekka okereke :verified:replied to mekka okereke :verified: last edited by
Or, they could have kept the same movie, and made it clear that the protagonists' perception of persecution and danger from Black people, is imaginary.
Eg, Black kids don't often show up to schools in the US and shoot a bunch of white kids. But white kids do show up to schools and shoot a bunch of Black kids.
Gang members in the US don't often kill firefighters, but this is a real reason that some Black folk don't like firefighters.
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Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:replied to mekka okereke :verified: last edited by
@mekkaokereke @billiglarper @ricci
Okay, setting aside the talk about movies for a second, as he was telling that story, I pretty much went through the same iterations that he did. Like, knowing that there's going to be racism in the story, but not quite guessing how deep it would go, and it just keeps going deeper. Like, I understand doing something bad because your Social circle is encouraging it: I'm haunted by the amount of racist language I used as a drugged-out middle schooler, but I can't fathom how someone can do something that sociopathic. And to top it off, I'm thinking of this 80-year-old who can never forget that he not only did that, but got away with it, not because no one found out, but because no one cared....then I was like, "well of course shit like that would happen, racism is a culturally enforced norm, and it harms everyone it touches."
It's absolutely flooring to think about.
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Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:replied to Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon: last edited by
@mekkaokereke @billiglarper @ricci
Like I know this isn't the main takeaway from the story, because the main takeaway is the crazy levels of racism that we just don't think about and don't see, and how apparently it was at some point absolutely pervasive for firefighters, but I'm always saying that racism hurts white people more than we realize, and this story, about the 89-year-old man talking about how haunted he is by this, is a really good example of that.He was doing something he should have been able to be proud of, but racism made him do something he regretted, and he's had to live with that for the last 50 years: racism didn't benefit him as a white person, it gave him 50 years of guilt.
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Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:replied to Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon: last edited by
@mekkaokereke @billiglarper @ricci
Anyway, we were talking about a movie...I did always think the part where the guy shoots the firefighter dad was just unrealistically dark, and wondered if maybe it was just some one-off news article the writer had read, but you make a good point that including that perspective in a film without including a perspective like this really doesn't give a clear picture of the situation.
What the movie seems to be focused on is the perspective of the dude, and how these things he gets involved in because of racism harm him in the end. I think it does a good job of that: racism makes him commit stupid crimes, ruins his relationship with his mom, gets him put in prison, and gets his brother killed, and he quickly learns that other white supremacists don't actually have his back when it counts, and are willing to turn on him at a moment's convenience.
What it does a poor job of is showing empathy towards their actual victims.
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Elisabeth Mreplied to Lux :flag_genderfluid: last edited by
@orange_lux
A movie about a far right activist who recants is potentially a great premise. You could make a movie like that without perpetuating stereotypes or glorifying nazis
@Raccoon @SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci -
Lux :flag_genderfluid:replied to Elisabeth M last edited by
@independentpen @Raccoon @SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci I don't want to see anything that glorifies nazis, even repented ones. We can make so many movies about racism without ever needing to have a white hero, for starters.
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@independentpen @orange_lux @Raccoon @billiglarper exactly, I thought the thing not to do was "put the dangerous, racist clichΓ© of Black people as violent predators in a movie."
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Elisabeth Mreplied to Lux :flag_genderfluid: last edited by
@orange_lux
"I don't want to see anything that glorifies nazis." I agree, that's what I just said. As an example of one alternative ... there's that radio story about a Black man who ended up collecting the kkk hats or whatever of all the people who recanted after talking with him. Powerful story - but there are a ton of possible ways to deal with this topic truthfully, without regurgitating tropes. White hero not required
@Raccoon @SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci -
Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:replied to Elisabeth M last edited by
@independentpen @orange_lux @SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci
So, I know this isn't the point that people want to hear, but, in successful conflict management and resolution, something we talk about is that it's important to keep in mind that all conflicts must eventually resolve in some way. At the end of the day, we are going to be in a world where the current conflict is no longer happening, and everyone needs to be able to move on.If you don't give the other side some assurance that, when they're ready to lay down arms and come back into the fold, you're going to be willing to listen and bring them back somehow, it's going to be that much harder for them to walk away.
I appreciate that in stories of redemption: we don't have to forgive and forget everything, but being willing to somehow set things aside in order to find a way to move forward is pretty much crucial to resolving a conflict.
(continued)
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Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:replied to Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon: last edited by
@independentpen @orange_lux @SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci
This is something that applies to most conflicts, especially ones based on arbitrary in-groups and out-groups.We don't necessarily need to go deep into the empathy here, but we do need to make it clear that our issue with bigots is nothing more than the fact that they are bigots. If they want to stop being bigots, the conflict ends then and there, because that's the entire point driving the conflict.
And we do need to make it clear that they will face consequences if they don't walk away. It may be people saying mean things about them on social media, or it may be having their brother killed because he followed in their footsteps, or it may be sitting at their 89th birthday, looking back on 50 years of guilt because they acted on it.
We can't walk away from the conflict, because we aren't instigating it. We need to make it clear that they stand to lose if they stay, but lose nothing if they walk away.