Fascists love Star Wars. Even though the whole point of Star Wars is that fascists suck, and that the universe would be better without them.
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Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:replied to Lux :flag_genderfluid: last edited by
@orange_lux @SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci
...I'm confused... do you mean "don't make a movie about racism"? I'm wondering if maybe my post wasn't clear... -
Lux :flag_genderfluid:replied to Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon: last edited by
@Raccoon @SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci not "don't make a movie about racism", but more like "if you want to portray your main character as a far-right activist, don't do it".
Even if the scenario was better handled like you suggested, the main issue remains : real-world far-right activists will praise the looks of the movie before its message.
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mekka okereke :verified:replied to Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon: last edited by
@Raccoon @[email protected] @billiglarper @ricci
Great question.
Many ways.
If they wanted to make a movie that showed the futility of white supremacist violence, without reinforcing the most harmful, untrue, racist fever dream stereotypes about Black people, with a sympathetic protagonist, and Hollywood action movie glorification of horrific violence, "Shot Caller," is a much better movie.
Shot caller trailer:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QQxjyRr9k2EThere are barely any Black people in this movie.
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mekka okereke :verified:replied to mekka okereke :verified: last edited by
Or, they could have kept the same movie, and made it clear that the protagonists' perception of persecution and danger from Black people, is imaginary.
Eg, Black kids don't often show up to schools in the US and shoot a bunch of white kids. But white kids do show up to schools and shoot a bunch of Black kids.
Gang members in the US don't often kill firefighters, but this is a real reason that some Black folk don't like firefighters.
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Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:replied to mekka okereke :verified: last edited by
@mekkaokereke @billiglarper @ricci
Okay, setting aside the talk about movies for a second, as he was telling that story, I pretty much went through the same iterations that he did. Like, knowing that there's going to be racism in the story, but not quite guessing how deep it would go, and it just keeps going deeper. Like, I understand doing something bad because your Social circle is encouraging it: I'm haunted by the amount of racist language I used as a drugged-out middle schooler, but I can't fathom how someone can do something that sociopathic. And to top it off, I'm thinking of this 80-year-old who can never forget that he not only did that, but got away with it, not because no one found out, but because no one cared....then I was like, "well of course shit like that would happen, racism is a culturally enforced norm, and it harms everyone it touches."
It's absolutely flooring to think about.
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Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:replied to Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon: last edited by
@mekkaokereke @billiglarper @ricci
Like I know this isn't the main takeaway from the story, because the main takeaway is the crazy levels of racism that we just don't think about and don't see, and how apparently it was at some point absolutely pervasive for firefighters, but I'm always saying that racism hurts white people more than we realize, and this story, about the 89-year-old man talking about how haunted he is by this, is a really good example of that.He was doing something he should have been able to be proud of, but racism made him do something he regretted, and he's had to live with that for the last 50 years: racism didn't benefit him as a white person, it gave him 50 years of guilt.
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Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:replied to Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon: last edited by
@mekkaokereke @billiglarper @ricci
Anyway, we were talking about a movie...I did always think the part where the guy shoots the firefighter dad was just unrealistically dark, and wondered if maybe it was just some one-off news article the writer had read, but you make a good point that including that perspective in a film without including a perspective like this really doesn't give a clear picture of the situation.
What the movie seems to be focused on is the perspective of the dude, and how these things he gets involved in because of racism harm him in the end. I think it does a good job of that: racism makes him commit stupid crimes, ruins his relationship with his mom, gets him put in prison, and gets his brother killed, and he quickly learns that other white supremacists don't actually have his back when it counts, and are willing to turn on him at a moment's convenience.
What it does a poor job of is showing empathy towards their actual victims.
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Elisabeth Mreplied to Lux :flag_genderfluid: last edited by
@orange_lux
A movie about a far right activist who recants is potentially a great premise. You could make a movie like that without perpetuating stereotypes or glorifying nazis
@Raccoon @SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci -
Lux :flag_genderfluid:replied to Elisabeth M last edited by
@independentpen @Raccoon @SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci I don't want to see anything that glorifies nazis, even repented ones. We can make so many movies about racism without ever needing to have a white hero, for starters.
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@independentpen @orange_lux @Raccoon @billiglarper exactly, I thought the thing not to do was "put the dangerous, racist cliché of Black people as violent predators in a movie."
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Elisabeth Mreplied to Lux :flag_genderfluid: last edited by
@orange_lux
"I don't want to see anything that glorifies nazis." I agree, that's what I just said. As an example of one alternative ... there's that radio story about a Black man who ended up collecting the kkk hats or whatever of all the people who recanted after talking with him. Powerful story - but there are a ton of possible ways to deal with this topic truthfully, without regurgitating tropes. White hero not required
@Raccoon @SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci -
Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:replied to Elisabeth M last edited by
@independentpen @orange_lux @SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci
So, I know this isn't the point that people want to hear, but, in successful conflict management and resolution, something we talk about is that it's important to keep in mind that all conflicts must eventually resolve in some way. At the end of the day, we are going to be in a world where the current conflict is no longer happening, and everyone needs to be able to move on.If you don't give the other side some assurance that, when they're ready to lay down arms and come back into the fold, you're going to be willing to listen and bring them back somehow, it's going to be that much harder for them to walk away.
I appreciate that in stories of redemption: we don't have to forgive and forget everything, but being willing to somehow set things aside in order to find a way to move forward is pretty much crucial to resolving a conflict.
(continued)
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Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:replied to Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon: last edited by
@independentpen @orange_lux @SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci
This is something that applies to most conflicts, especially ones based on arbitrary in-groups and out-groups.We don't necessarily need to go deep into the empathy here, but we do need to make it clear that our issue with bigots is nothing more than the fact that they are bigots. If they want to stop being bigots, the conflict ends then and there, because that's the entire point driving the conflict.
And we do need to make it clear that they will face consequences if they don't walk away. It may be people saying mean things about them on social media, or it may be having their brother killed because he followed in their footsteps, or it may be sitting at their 89th birthday, looking back on 50 years of guilt because they acted on it.
We can't walk away from the conflict, because we aren't instigating it. We need to make it clear that they stand to lose if they stay, but lose nothing if they walk away.
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Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:replied to Sally Strange last edited by
@SallyStrange @independentpen @orange_lux @billiglarper
I agree, it would have been better if there were less scenes of black people engaging in the violence and more scenes of them just doing racist crimes to black people who were minding their own business, or if he met the guy who killed his father in prison and it turned out he was white and he just assumed he was black because he was a racist... Because people who see a black person committing a crime and are able to make the jump to all black people being criminals must already have a belief in racial stereotyping in their head. -
Sally Strangereplied to Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon: last edited by
@Raccoon @independentpen @orange_lux @billiglarper goddamn.
1) untag the OP
2) this point is so not debatable. Racist tropes was the topic. You're not even talking about that. Like just stop. Start a new thread if you must pontificate. -
Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:replied to Sally Strange last edited by
@SallyStrange
Yeah I'm not sure where I was going with that, I think I lost my train of thought somewhere in there... Gonna move on... -
Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:replied to Elisabeth M last edited by
@independentpen @orange_lux @SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci
Stepping back, I wanted to say, think this is a good summary of the takeaway from this conversation. American History X does a good job of the first one, but a terrible job of the second, and thus fails at it's anti-Nazi objective.We can still look at it through a lot of lenses, as with any work of art, but through that one, it misses a key point: Nazi's don't care that they're the bad guys, they like feeling like cool villains.
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fanf42replied to Natasha Nox 🇺🇦🇵🇸 last edited by
@Natanox @omegaprobe @brunogirin @michael_w_busch @mekkaokereke I understand that and I fear I'm starting to feel that drag with my modestly successful tiny company. I'm not sure how / what reality checks can be put in place and made binding (it's yet another story to accept to see the result of checks and remove oneself from power)
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Natasha Nox 🇺🇦🇵🇸replied to fanf42 last edited by
@fanf42 @omegaprobe @brunogirin @michael_w_busch @mekkaokereke That's a pretty good question. I personally like to think I would convert my company to a cooperative if I ever was successful (unfortunately I'm stuck in german welfare, would I move even an inch I'd be in huge trouble). Of course that's really idealistic.
I guess it's a lot of small things. Not isolating yourself from common people, using public transport, transparent wages for you and your employees everyone can see… such things.
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@fanf42 @Natanox @brunogirin @michael_w_busch @mekkaokereke I don't think this applies to small companies, where you actually see the face of your employees and co-workers on a day to day basis, and they can stop you and talk to you like a normal person.
There has to be certain level of disassociation for the sociopathic impulses to take over.
Check this: https://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/threads/state-of-the-mongoose-2022.123719/
That's a healthily sized company, being run in a healthy way.