A poll: how do you feel about the general idea of starter packs (or some equivalent) on fedi?

The Nexus of Privacy

A poll: how do you feel about the general idea of starter packs (or some equivalent) on fedi? (1/7)

Bluesky's "starter packs" make it easy to follow a bunch of accounts all at once. Anybody can create one or more starter packs, and they're used for a lot of different things; the Blacksky starter pack, for example, is great for newcomers from Black Twitter, and @newsmast's FediSky starter pack is helpful for finding folks you might know from the fedivere.

But Bluesky's implementation has some major problems: people can be added to starter packs without their consent, aren't even notified when it happens, and it's not obvious how to opt out. And any mechanism like this potentially creates "rich get richer" dyanamics and risks magnifying existing biases -- guys tend to mostly add guys to starter packs, white people tend to mostly add white people to starter packs, etc. Still, despite the problems, they're very helpful for onboarding.

I've had discussions with multiple people working on ideas for fediverse starter packs or the equivalents, and similar questions keep cropping up. So I figured I'd do a series of polls to get feedback on what people think.

To start with, the basic question, how do you feel about the general idea of starter packs (or some equivalent) on fedi?

the Mastodon iOS app cuts off long text in the polls, so I'm including it here as well

No, Bad idea for fedi, don't do it
Maybe, depending on how it's implemented
Yes, this is important functionality - get something out now, we can fix it later!
Not sure

#fediverse #bluesky #starterPacks

The Nexus of Privacy

Poll: how should fedvierse starter packs handle consent?

On Bluesky, adding somebody to a starter packs don't require consent, and it's not obvious how to remove yourself. But values are different here in the fediverse, and consent is important!

So how should people working on fedi starter packs (or the equivalent) handle consent?

opt-in: accounts should give permission before being added
opt-in for people, opt-out for organizational accounts
notification + opt-out: people should get notified when added, and can remove themselves
opt-out but no notification: people aren't told they're added (this is what Bluesky does)

The Nexus of Privacy

Poll: If somebody's opted-in to profile discovery, have they hoped in to fediverse started packs? (3/7)

Mastodon, Pixelfed, and some other fediverse software already have a setting about whether or not a profile should be suggested to users. On Mastodon, it's the "Feature profile and posts in discovery algorithms" seetting on the Privacy and Reach tab of your Public Profile settings. If somebody has already turned this on, does that mean they've opted-in to fediverse starter packs?

Yes, no further opt-in required
Not necessarily, there should be an additional opt in
Not sure

The Nexus of Privacy

Poll: How should people be notified when they're added to fediverse starter packs? (4/7)

(See the first post in the thread for more background on starter packs)

You can pick more than one!

An unlisted post mentioning them from the startup pack creator
A DM from the starter pack creator
Some other way (please leave a comment)
No notification needed
Not sure

The Nexus of Privacy

Polls on starter packs (5/7)

Many accounnts filter unwanted mentions and DMs. If a fediverse starter pack creator notifies somebody with one of those mechanisms and there isn't any response, what should the creator assume?

it's okay to add the account
it's not okay to add the account

The Nexus of Privacy

Poll: How should people who don't want to be included in a fediverse starter pack be able to opt out? (6/7)

(See the first post in the thread for more background on starter packs)

You can pick more than one!

send a DM to the starter pack's creator
block the starter pack's creator (which is how it works on Bluesky)
turn off the existing profile discovery setting to opt out of all starter packs
#NOBOT tag in the profile to opt out of all starter packs
Some other way (please leave a comment)
Not sure

The Nexus of Privacy

Poll: how much of a priority should fediverse starter packs be? (7/7)

As you can tell from the previous questions, it's not straightforward to do something like starter packs on the fediverse! And we haven't even gotten to the potential "rich get richer" dyanamics and risks magnifying existing biases. But new arrivals to Bluesky certainly think starter packs useful -- and for many people it's challenging to find people to follow in the fediverse.

So given all that ... how much of a priority should starter packs be?

It's urgent to get an initial version out. even if it's got problems -- we can clean it up later
High-priority, but we should take the time to do it right
It's one of many important things to work on
Lower priority than other important things
Not a priority at all
Not sure

The Nexus of Privacy

@mastodonmigration @dansup @julian @thisismissem @djsundog @graue @laurenshof I've had discussions with all of you about fediverse starter packs or the equivalent, here's a series of polls to get some perspectives on what people think --https://infosec.exchange/@thenexusofprivacy/113512328290399242 is the first one in the thread. Any help in boosting would be appreciated!

Mastodon Migration

@thenexusofprivacy @dansup @julian @thisismissem @djsundog @graue @laurenshof

Done.

Emelia 👸🏻

@thenexusofprivacy I sawy only notification + opt-out, but only accounts with the discoverable flag set to true. This is just another discovery mechanism isn't it?

Emelia 👸🏻

@thenexusofprivacy some other way: starter pack notifying you directly and/or your fediverse platform notifying you when you're added to collections

Soments21

@thenexusofprivacy @newsmast I'm new at Mastodon. It would help if there was some giant pointing arrow to help me find for content that I like. Newspapers have many stuff and yet they are organized. I don't know where to start from here.

Mastodon Migration

@thisismissem @thenexusofprivacy

1. Thinking that discovery flag set to false should be a general opt-out, for sure. Question, is there a user level way to query a profile for how the discovery flag is set?

2. A user might not what to set the discovery flag false, but still does not want to be included in packs. The idea to have a #NoPacks (or #NoBots) flag in the profile seems like a good one, unless and until such a flag could be integrated into the app.

Scott Feeney

@thenexusofprivacy the most obvious implementation strategy IMO is that the starter pack is a bot that follows you. And the starter pack creator must already follow you.

If you have discovery features off, or #/nobot, you can't be added.

If you have follow requests turned on, you'll have to approve being in the starter pack.

To remove yourself, block/softblock the starter pack.

Mastodon Migration

@thenexusofprivacy @dansup @julian @thisismissem @djsundog @graue @laurenshof

Will have more to say later, but from experience with these Follow Packs this week, one question that is not addressed here that really should be debated is the size of the pack. In particular, should there be a maximum size? If the size is too big, it becomes unwieldy to administer it, and that will inevitably lead to the best laid plans going awry. Finding that 25 may be a pretty good upper limit.

#StarterPack

Scott Feeney

@thenexusofprivacy it would be a mistake to require additional opt-in, beyond the opt-in for discovery features and the already-existing setting to approve followers.

99% of people who want their friends and community to find them, won't know that setting exists.

It was also a mistake to require an additional opt-in for full text search.

Mastodon leans too hard on opt-ins that make it hard to use Mastodon effectively, and should instead improve moderation and safety tools.

Mastodon Migration

@thenexusofprivacy @dansup @julian @thisismissem @djsundog @graue @laurenshof

The other potential problem, of course, with really large packs could be an explosion of follows which could potentially have unforeseen consequences both technically and socially.

So, max pack size is something we really should think about.

The Nexus of Privacy

@graue Thanks. In my view, it was completely the right thing for Mastodon to make full-text search opt-in. Many people in the fediverse value consent, and that battle got fought multiple times.

Starter packs are a somewhat different situation because there's already a consent option that's a close match, so I'm curious to hear what the feedback is on this.

Barktic Fox :therian:

@thenexusofprivacy I don’t think any kind of direct message from the creator would be needed. It could just be an extension of the existing follow notifications (or follow requests, if packs are opt-in). I’m always leery of having automated systems commingled with normal human channels of behavior, so an auto-composed post or DM just feels icky to me.

Something else to continue on from my other reply to this conversation that I just thought of: if someone has manual follow request approvals enabled, that should probably be used as a signal that the person doesn’t want to be included in a starter pack.

The Nexus of Privacy

@alahmnat it’s a great point, I hadn’t thought of extending the follow notification- thanks!