A poll: how do you feel about the general idea of starter packs (or some equivalent) on fedi?

Emelia 👸🏻

@thenexusofprivacy I sawy only notification + opt-out, but only accounts with the discoverable flag set to true. This is just another discovery mechanism isn't it?

Emelia 👸🏻

@thenexusofprivacy some other way: starter pack notifying you directly and/or your fediverse platform notifying you when you're added to collections

Soments21

@thenexusofprivacy @newsmast I'm new at Mastodon. It would help if there was some giant pointing arrow to help me find for content that I like. Newspapers have many stuff and yet they are organized. I don't know where to start from here.

Mastodon Migration

@thisismissem @thenexusofprivacy

1. Thinking that discovery flag set to false should be a general opt-out, for sure. Question, is there a user level way to query a profile for how the discovery flag is set?

2. A user might not what to set the discovery flag false, but still does not want to be included in packs. The idea to have a #NoPacks (or #NoBots) flag in the profile seems like a good one, unless and until such a flag could be integrated into the app.

Scott Feeney

@thenexusofprivacy the most obvious implementation strategy IMO is that the starter pack is a bot that follows you. And the starter pack creator must already follow you.

If you have discovery features off, or #/nobot, you can't be added.

If you have follow requests turned on, you'll have to approve being in the starter pack.

To remove yourself, block/softblock the starter pack.

Mastodon Migration

@thenexusofprivacy @dansup @julian @thisismissem @djsundog @graue @laurenshof

Will have more to say later, but from experience with these Follow Packs this week, one question that is not addressed here that really should be debated is the size of the pack. In particular, should there be a maximum size? If the size is too big, it becomes unwieldy to administer it, and that will inevitably lead to the best laid plans going awry. Finding that 25 may be a pretty good upper limit.

#StarterPack

Scott Feeney

@thenexusofprivacy it would be a mistake to require additional opt-in, beyond the opt-in for discovery features and the already-existing setting to approve followers.

99% of people who want their friends and community to find them, won't know that setting exists.

It was also a mistake to require an additional opt-in for full text search.

Mastodon leans too hard on opt-ins that make it hard to use Mastodon effectively, and should instead improve moderation and safety tools.

Mastodon Migration

@thenexusofprivacy @dansup @julian @thisismissem @djsundog @graue @laurenshof

The other potential problem, of course, with really large packs could be an explosion of follows which could potentially have unforeseen consequences both technically and socially.

So, max pack size is something we really should think about.

The Nexus of Privacy

@graue Thanks. In my view, it was completely the right thing for Mastodon to make full-text search opt-in. Many people in the fediverse value consent, and that battle got fought multiple times.

Starter packs are a somewhat different situation because there's already a consent option that's a close match, so I'm curious to hear what the feedback is on this.

Barktic Fox :therian:

@thenexusofprivacy I don’t think any kind of direct message from the creator would be needed. It could just be an extension of the existing follow notifications (or follow requests, if packs are opt-in). I’m always leery of having automated systems commingled with normal human channels of behavior, so an auto-composed post or DM just feels icky to me.

Something else to continue on from my other reply to this conversation that I just thought of: if someone has manual follow request approvals enabled, that should probably be used as a signal that the person doesn’t want to be included in a starter pack.

The Nexus of Privacy

@alahmnat it’s a great point, I hadn’t thought of extending the follow notification- thanks!

Newsmast Foundation

@Soments21 CC: @thenexusofprivacy

Sorry to jump in but we based our knowledge-sharing app and Communities off of newspaper sections, so you might be interested in our Communities!

There are 62 Communities and they can be quite active so we recommend following in a list so they don't take over your feed.

You can see all of them in this thread: https://newsmast.social/@newsmast/111840234033144502

Julian Fietkau

@mastodonmigration @thenexusofprivacy This question makes me ponder the differences between starter packs and opt-in lists (e.g. Academics on Mastodon) again. On https://directory.hci.social I have a bit under 200 people, and it allows for follow CSV import. Maybe if the goal is to network an academic field, that's a use case for longer lists? I certainly wouldn't want to exclude anyone, and have always given the advice (especially to newcomers) to follow liberally and prune when needed.

The Nexus of Privacy

It's a great point. For an academic disciplinelimiting the list size is going to be exclusionary -- and apmplify rich-get-richer dynamics (because a shorter list will include the best-known people) and in most cases diversity issues.

And I don't think this is particularly unique to academic disciplines, I see the same dynamics in other scenarios as well. But I also see @mastodonmigration's points, it really is a quandry!

@julian

mav :happy_blob:

@thenexusofprivacy
I genuinely don't get the mass appeal of starter packs, why do I want to follow 200 people at once? No. Never.

I'm pretty disappointed with their implementation on bsky, being able to use a list as a "starter pack" would be a lot more productive IMO. We already have lists and they're much more productive.

The Nexus of Privacy

@mav I don’t ever do a follow-all but I find them very useful. Oh look, here’s 30 experts in decolonization. Here’s 45 critical AI theorists. Etc. it’s true that it’s not that different from a public list, and the spreadsheets for academics (etc) play a similar role with a very low-tech UI for those who know about them, but I do think it’s a useful concept

The Nexus of Privacy

@mav also specifically in the Bluesky context people are trying to recover/expand their Twitter networks, and folllow all can make sense for that if it’s a pack from somebody you trust

GunChleoc

@thenexusofprivacy Since the software does not know what's a personal account and what's an organizational account, this could be an option in the user account with multiple states:

1. Never allow
2. Always allow
3. Require confirmation

You should also be able to remove yourself later if you're getting overwhelmed with interactions.

GunChleoc

@thenexusofprivacy There should also be a list in your settings to opt in/out later

GunChleoc

@thenexusofprivacy As a server admin, I can define a list of follow recommendations - this is already a type of starter pack, but with any possibility to opt-out for the accounts listed.

This is of course only a possibility for niche servers.