Thoughts on bringing sportbots.xyz to Lemmy?
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Right, but browsing by all is nice to be able to do
if you're posting so much all at the same time that it's flooding "c/all" or whatever, then I'm not surprised people would be unhappyThey had a way of engaging with the platform they were happy with, so if abnormal posting patterns of inorganic kinda ruined that for them, of course they're gonna be unhappy about it
Its not unreasonable for people to want the option to use c/all and/or their front page at their discretion, that's why both are there lol. I visit both regularly for different reasons. My feed is mostly small niche communities and then I like to go check out the larger global discussions
I don't think it's particularly fair to argue "well if everyone just engages with this platform in one narrow way (in spite of it having other options baked into it) they wouldn't have this problem"
Like... Sure, but they might not want to engage with it in that one very narrow way
and that'd be entirely valid.When chatting with the guy who curates a feed of loops to post I suggested maybe slowing down the rate of posts because it was drowning everything out for me, and he kindly obliged.
Curration and spacing things out a little bit might also be a good solution here
Yeah, sorry. I really don't want to rehash this discussion. Browsing by all only makes sense because the whole network is so small that people still believe that drinking from the firehose is the only way that can satiate they content consumption needs. And for the thousands of users here on Lemmy saying "this is too much content", there are tens of millions still locked on Reddit because no other place has the content they are looking for.
Until last year, users could not filter the instances themselves, so it was up to the admins to limit things at the federation level. Newer versions of Lemmy already give this tooling to end users, so if the bots bother them, I am just going to say "sorry, you have everything in your power to stop this from bothering you, go ahead and block it yourself".
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"Botspam" is when you have someone mass sending programs sending messages that do not enrich the content of the network. A bot that is mirroring perfectly good accounts from other platforms is far from the case.
Put another way: if the content is relevant to the point where part of the people want to have it, and if the content being mirrored has a proper context for some members of the community, then we shouldn't count it as spam.
As you said: people are responsible for curating their own feed. If they want that content they can go get it and post it.
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Yeah, sorry. I really don't want to rehash this discussion. Browsing by all only makes sense because the whole network is so small that people still believe that drinking from the firehose is the only way that can satiate they content consumption needs. And for the thousands of users here on Lemmy saying "this is too much content", there are tens of millions still locked on Reddit because no other place has the content they are looking for.
Until last year, users could not filter the instances themselves, so it was up to the admins to limit things at the federation level. Newer versions of Lemmy already give this tooling to end users, so if the bots bother them, I am just going to say "sorry, you have everything in your power to stop this from bothering you, go ahead and block it yourself".
I mean... I used to browse r/all on reddit where there was absolutely no dearth of content. Some folks just like being able to scroll through the bigger global stuff too.
Lots of people did that on reddit. I don't mean to come across as rude or confrontational, but I do kinda feel you might be assuming things about how people engage with link aggregator sites like reddit or lemmy based on how you like to engage with them. People don't just browse the "all" feed if there's not enough in their subscriptions. Sometimes it's nice to see what people are discussing across the broader social space here
If that's flooded with inorganic posts, it changes the experience and takes away someone's ability to do something they wanted to be able to do, and when that happens people generally find it frustrating. Especially if they feel like inorganic content doesn't belong on Lemmy, which isn't exactly an uncommon sentiment. I don't mind inorganic posts personally, but I do think the way you go about it matters.
That's just my two cents. Like I said, I'm not trying to be overly argumentative, I apologise if it feels like I'm turning things into a debate. I just felt there's a perspective missing in this discussion and wanted to contribute
I hope you can support sports discussion on Lemmy in a way you and other Lemmy users can enjoy. Hope you have a good one
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I mean... I used to browse r/all on reddit where there was absolutely no dearth of content. Some folks just like being able to scroll through the bigger global stuff too.
Lots of people did that on reddit. I don't mean to come across as rude or confrontational, but I do kinda feel you might be assuming things about how people engage with link aggregator sites like reddit or lemmy based on how you like to engage with them. People don't just browse the "all" feed if there's not enough in their subscriptions. Sometimes it's nice to see what people are discussing across the broader social space here
If that's flooded with inorganic posts, it changes the experience and takes away someone's ability to do something they wanted to be able to do, and when that happens people generally find it frustrating. Especially if they feel like inorganic content doesn't belong on Lemmy, which isn't exactly an uncommon sentiment. I don't mind inorganic posts personally, but I do think the way you go about it matters.
That's just my two cents. Like I said, I'm not trying to be overly argumentative, I apologise if it feels like I'm turning things into a debate. I just felt there's a perspective missing in this discussion and wanted to contribute
I hope you can support sports discussion on Lemmy in a way you and other Lemmy users can enjoy. Hope you have a good one
r/all is not the same as drinking from the firehouse. Reddit has other selection algorithms beyond the vote count to build the front page.
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As you said: people are responsible for curating their own feed. If they want that content they can go get it and post it.
They are not going to go through all this work and if the content is already offered somewhere else.
And if someone is using a program to automate this job which...
- gets content from a database of pre-curated accounts
- to post it to communities within a proper context
... is bad?
Why?
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r/all is not the same as drinking from the firehouse. Reddit has other selection algorithms beyond the vote count to build the front page.
I don't think that really changes my point
People like having both. People browse browse either all feed for similar reasons, or at least I do. I much preferred when r/all wasn't personalized at all.
I like it for discovery and seeing what else folks are chatting about. You get to see what's worth talking about in so many different communities, big and small. So many subcultures and communities, ones you're loosely familiar with, and ones you straight up didn't know exist, and everything in between. Big communities you want to check in on like the politics stuff but that you don't want to dominate your feed. And novel things you'd have never found otherwise. And when it's flooded with automated posts I can see why people would be frustrated that they can't interact with part of the user experience in the way they want
I switched off .ee when there were a ton of subs being mirrored from reddit that .ee was federated with (it seems to have died down now?), and c/all was just a neverending stream of posts with no one talking or engaging. Just empty posts taking up like half of c/all. It meant I couldn't engage with the platform in the way I wanted, so I changed instance back to my previous .world account so I could use c/all again, I really missed it.
I wanna talk to folks. Making sure communities keep going and can sustain themselves is important but the point of social media is usually to socialize, or at least lurk and observe other people socializing, even on a more anonymous site like reddit or lemmy
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I don't think that really changes my point
People like having both. People browse browse either all feed for similar reasons, or at least I do. I much preferred when r/all wasn't personalized at all.
I like it for discovery and seeing what else folks are chatting about. You get to see what's worth talking about in so many different communities, big and small. So many subcultures and communities, ones you're loosely familiar with, and ones you straight up didn't know exist, and everything in between. Big communities you want to check in on like the politics stuff but that you don't want to dominate your feed. And novel things you'd have never found otherwise. And when it's flooded with automated posts I can see why people would be frustrated that they can't interact with part of the user experience in the way they want
I switched off .ee when there were a ton of subs being mirrored from reddit that .ee was federated with (it seems to have died down now?), and c/all was just a neverending stream of posts with no one talking or engaging. Just empty posts taking up like half of c/all. It meant I couldn't engage with the platform in the way I wanted, so I changed instance back to my previous .world account so I could use c/all again, I really missed it.
I wanna talk to folks. Making sure communities keep going and can sustain themselves is important but the point of social media is usually to socialize, or at least lurk and observe other people socializing, even on a more anonymous site like reddit or lemmy
I could argue that there l was never a time when r/all was free from filters, but I there is another conversation I think we should be having: if you are switching instances because one has bot accounts listed and the other doesn't, you are still "manually curating your feeds", albeit in a very complicated way.
You think bots are bad, so you moved to LW. I've heard people glad about being on .ee because they like what the bots can bring.
At the end of the day, the deeper issue seems to be that people not only want to feel like they are in control of what they do, they also want to feel validated in their choices. And we keep searching for justifications to back those up, even when it's completely irrelevant.
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I could argue that there l was never a time when r/all was free from filters, but I there is another conversation I think we should be having: if you are switching instances because one has bot accounts listed and the other doesn't, you are still "manually curating your feeds", albeit in a very complicated way.
You think bots are bad, so you moved to LW. I've heard people glad about being on .ee because they like what the bots can bring.
At the end of the day, the deeper issue seems to be that people not only want to feel like they are in control of what they do, they also want to feel validated in their choices. And we keep searching for justifications to back those up, even when it's completely irrelevant.
I don't mind bots, it's the details of how they can impact the user experience in some cases that causes issues for me. On several occasions I've defended bots being on lemmy and the Fedivers. And I switched instances because curating my feed by moving back to .world was easier than chasing down all the mirrored comms and slowly blocking all of them, and I'm not opposed to those comms existing, but I can absolutely empathize with why so many on lemmy don't like them. I'm not at all opposed to curating my feed, I also have a couple comms blocked.
My point was really just that it's understandable people would be frustrated if you're impeding their ability to do something they expect they should be able to do. Sure it's fixable, but no one expects to have to filter out a torrent of empty bot posts, because why would they? And most folks here are opposed to that kind of traffic. When you create a new problem that people hadn't even anticipated could be an issue, people will find that frustrating, and they'll view it as a problem that didn't need to exist in the first place
I can empathize with your desire to supplement content with automation, but I'm not getting the impression you're able to empathize with anyone else's perspective. There's probably a way of going about this that wouldn't cause any realy issue for folks, but you're definitely not going to find it if you just refuse any opportunity to learn from the perspectives being voiced to you.
You're now more or less trying to psychoanalyze the people telling you they don't like what you want to do instead of trying to understand why and find a path that's more pro-social.
If what you personally wanna do makes half the site unhappy, it's worth considering whether all of the people replying are wrong, or if you, the person who's trying to figure out how to do a thing lots of people are telling you would make them unhappy, are in the wrong
I won't be replying further, I don't get the impression you care what my perspective, or anyone else's is, so I'm not going to spend more time voicing it. I hope you have a good day, take care.
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I don't mind bots, it's the details of how they can impact the user experience in some cases that causes issues for me. On several occasions I've defended bots being on lemmy and the Fedivers. And I switched instances because curating my feed by moving back to .world was easier than chasing down all the mirrored comms and slowly blocking all of them, and I'm not opposed to those comms existing, but I can absolutely empathize with why so many on lemmy don't like them. I'm not at all opposed to curating my feed, I also have a couple comms blocked.
My point was really just that it's understandable people would be frustrated if you're impeding their ability to do something they expect they should be able to do. Sure it's fixable, but no one expects to have to filter out a torrent of empty bot posts, because why would they? And most folks here are opposed to that kind of traffic. When you create a new problem that people hadn't even anticipated could be an issue, people will find that frustrating, and they'll view it as a problem that didn't need to exist in the first place
I can empathize with your desire to supplement content with automation, but I'm not getting the impression you're able to empathize with anyone else's perspective. There's probably a way of going about this that wouldn't cause any realy issue for folks, but you're definitely not going to find it if you just refuse any opportunity to learn from the perspectives being voiced to you.
You're now more or less trying to psychoanalyze the people telling you they don't like what you want to do instead of trying to understand why and find a path that's more pro-social.
If what you personally wanna do makes half the site unhappy, it's worth considering whether all of the people replying are wrong, or if you, the person who's trying to figure out how to do a thing lots of people are telling you would make them unhappy, are in the wrong
I won't be replying further, I don't get the impression you care what my perspective, or anyone else's is, so I'm not going to spend more time voicing it. I hope you have a good day, take care.
Good comment from your side, as usual, thanks
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I don't mind bots, it's the details of how they can impact the user experience in some cases that causes issues for me. On several occasions I've defended bots being on lemmy and the Fedivers. And I switched instances because curating my feed by moving back to .world was easier than chasing down all the mirrored comms and slowly blocking all of them, and I'm not opposed to those comms existing, but I can absolutely empathize with why so many on lemmy don't like them. I'm not at all opposed to curating my feed, I also have a couple comms blocked.
My point was really just that it's understandable people would be frustrated if you're impeding their ability to do something they expect they should be able to do. Sure it's fixable, but no one expects to have to filter out a torrent of empty bot posts, because why would they? And most folks here are opposed to that kind of traffic. When you create a new problem that people hadn't even anticipated could be an issue, people will find that frustrating, and they'll view it as a problem that didn't need to exist in the first place
I can empathize with your desire to supplement content with automation, but I'm not getting the impression you're able to empathize with anyone else's perspective. There's probably a way of going about this that wouldn't cause any realy issue for folks, but you're definitely not going to find it if you just refuse any opportunity to learn from the perspectives being voiced to you.
You're now more or less trying to psychoanalyze the people telling you they don't like what you want to do instead of trying to understand why and find a path that's more pro-social.
If what you personally wanna do makes half the site unhappy, it's worth considering whether all of the people replying are wrong, or if you, the person who's trying to figure out how to do a thing lots of people are telling you would make them unhappy, are in the wrong
I won't be replying further, I don't get the impression you care what my perspective, or anyone else's is, so I'm not going to spend more time voicing it. I hope you have a good day, take care.
If what you personally wanna do makes half the site unhappy (...)
You are looking at half of the people on the site (~25k) What about the the other 99.96% (75 million) of people still on Reddit that and won't leave because they Reddit has kept a choke-hold on the communities and the monopolized the content?
You are treating this as a static system. There are second-order effects.
but I’m not getting the impression you’re able to empathize with anyone else’s perspective.
I don’t get the impression you care what my perspective,
It's not a matter of caring/not caring. It's about accepting that this is an issue with conflicting interests. I am asking about how we can do this that minimize these conflicts and build things in a way that can increase/keep the upside (for the many) while minimizing the downside (for the few), but you are appealing to thought-terminating accusations ("you are not showing empathy") instead of looking for a compromise that can make everyone happy.
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If what you personally wanna do makes half the site unhappy (...)
You are looking at half of the people on the site (~25k) What about the the other 99.96% (75 million) of people still on Reddit that and won't leave because they Reddit has kept a choke-hold on the communities and the monopolized the content?
You are treating this as a static system. There are second-order effects.
but I’m not getting the impression you’re able to empathize with anyone else’s perspective.
I don’t get the impression you care what my perspective,
It's not a matter of caring/not caring. It's about accepting that this is an issue with conflicting interests. I am asking about how we can do this that minimize these conflicts and build things in a way that can increase/keep the upside (for the many) while minimizing the downside (for the few), but you are appealing to thought-terminating accusations ("you are not showing empathy") instead of looking for a compromise that can make everyone happy.
I literally made suggestions in my first comment along side explaining why I thought it was important to find compromises, and you argued with my reasoning for suggesting compromise so I don't think it was unreasonable for me to assume you were opposed to my position that considering people's dislike of bots and non organic traffic in your approach
There's no conflict of interest if we both want compromise, so I'm not sure why youd argue with my reasons and tell me you "don't care" about the reasons I'd want compromise on this issue, while also saying you want compromise... I'm sincerely confused by that
It sounds like we agree...?
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Good comment from your side, as usual, thanks
Thank you, that's very kind of you
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I literally made suggestions in my first comment along side explaining why I thought it was important to find compromises, and you argued with my reasoning for suggesting compromise so I don't think it was unreasonable for me to assume you were opposed to my position that considering people's dislike of bots and non organic traffic in your approach
There's no conflict of interest if we both want compromise, so I'm not sure why youd argue with my reasons and tell me you "don't care" about the reasons I'd want compromise on this issue, while also saying you want compromise... I'm sincerely confused by that
It sounds like we agree...?
"don't mirror all the posts, but only those that have a threshold of interest" is a compromise.
"Don't post to communities unless the admins/moderators gave strict permission" is a compromise.
"Don't post at all, because some people want to be able to drink from the firehouse and not filter the content themselves" is not a compromise.
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"don't mirror all the posts, but only those that have a threshold of interest" is a compromise.
"Don't post to communities unless the admins/moderators gave strict permission" is a compromise.
"Don't post at all, because some people want to be able to drink from the firehouse and not filter the content themselves" is not a compromise.
I don't want you to not post at all...? My suggestions were to organize with the sports comms, collaborate to make sure it works for them, or potentially create a dedicated comm for all the mirrored stuff. I think picking and choosing what to mirror would also be a great idea.
Mostly I just wanted to express that I thought thinking about the human aspect of how your plan will be recieved is important...
I don't think I said not to post at all at any point, did I..? (I'm falling alseep, I'll look back at my comments when I'm more awake) I don't want that at all. I even said I wished you luck with finding a solution that works well and that will be well recieved
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I don't want you to not post at all...? My suggestions were to organize with the sports comms, collaborate to make sure it works for them, or potentially create a dedicated comm for all the mirrored stuff. I think picking and choosing what to mirror would also be a great idea.
Mostly I just wanted to express that I thought thinking about the human aspect of how your plan will be recieved is important...
I don't think I said not to post at all at any point, did I..? (I'm falling alseep, I'll look back at my comments when I'm more awake) I don't want that at all. I even said I wished you luck with finding a solution that works well and that will be well recieved
My suggestions were to organize with the sports comms (collaborate to make sure it works for them), or potentially create a dedicated comm for all the mirrored stuff. I think picking and choosing what to mirror would also be a great idea.
All of that was done already when I was mirroring the alien.top accounts, and people still complained, and we were here spending a good hour arguing over that whether their complaints are legitimate or not.
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My suggestions were to organize with the sports comms (collaborate to make sure it works for them), or potentially create a dedicated comm for all the mirrored stuff. I think picking and choosing what to mirror would also be a great idea.
All of that was done already when I was mirroring the alien.top accounts, and people still complained, and we were here spending a good hour arguing over that whether their complaints are legitimate or not.
Sorry I was still making changes to my comment to try and convey what I mean, its a bit different now. I'll read this I'm the morning
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I always enjoy seeing pug Jesus posts cause he posts little context blurbs for his history memes so I get to learn about stuff, and sometimes I've asked him stuff and he's taught me all about certain parts of history
️His memes come with story time lol.
I feel guilty about my last comment and at the risk of narrowing down who I mean, I want to be clear that Pug is ABSOLUTELY NOT who I was referring to. I love their thoughtful posting habits.
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I feel guilty about my last comment and at the risk of narrowing down who I mean, I want to be clear that Pug is ABSOLUTELY NOT who I was referring to. I love their thoughtful posting habits.
Pug is ABSOLUTELY NOT who I was referring to
That's the risk when you don't explitely tell who you have in mind
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Pug is ABSOLUTELY NOT who I was referring to
That's the risk when you don't explitely tell who you have in mind
Well it ain't Blaze either lol
The two I had in mind rarely comment so I doubt I'll ever see this. They might as well be bots.
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Well it ain't Blaze either lol
The two I had in mind rarely comment so I doubt I'll ever see this. They might as well be bots.
Ah, I think I know the ones, especially if they rarely comment
