"Richard Stallman's problematic behavior, particularly with respect to his views on sexual harassment, sexual assault, and sexualizing minors, are best explained by his (supposed) neurodivergence, and to call for his censure on this basis is discrimina...
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Neurodivergent members of the free software community: what are some forms of discrimination and ableism that you have experienced in our community? What are some steps that have helped, or could help, ease your participation?
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@[email protected] Personally the only pattern that I see here is Stallman's hyperfixation on words and their meanings in a similar trend to GNU's famous "words to avoid" list.
I'm think he is aware of power dynamics and coercion. But those things are not physical violence, so he does not consider them to fit under the umbrella of (sexual) assault because in his mind assault is a word used for exclusively physical violence.
While Stallman is hyperfixated on getting other people to start using the correct words for stuff he sounds like he's defending people who have committed crimes. But all he's doing is just trying to get people to use the correct words, which I consider very neurodivergent behavior.
In your post I have the most issues with this statement:At these events, in these private homes, he may be afforded many opportunities to privacy with vulnerable people, including minors that, in his view, can consent to having sex with adults.
I think this specifically is a very disingenuous and unacceptable statement. I think if you knew Stallman you would not be making implications such as this. He definitely does not want to take advantage of vulnerable people. -
@SuperDicq I agree that he has a common pattern of word fixation, but I will state that even when his remarks are interpreted as such it is harmful. However, he justifies and re-enforces his word fixations from beliefs rooted deeper: for example, his defense of Roy Moore endorses grooming of minors. Moreover, when he downplays sexual assault, it is not only because of his word fixation, but re-enforced by beliefs that erode the norms of consent: he thinks, for example, that "stealing a kiss"[..]
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@SuperDicq is not wrong. He also definitely does *not* understand how power dynamics erode consent: he dismisses a clear case of quid-pro-quo, for example.
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Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:replied to Drew DeVault last edited by
@drewdevault the thing with RMS is that there were people around him, some who didn't call him out.
But some folks in his circles did tell him his behaviour was problematic. But he didn't feel inclined to listen to them.
It took major public attention to even get an apology. That behaviour over years helped to contribute to the attitude in Free Software.
But that attitude isn't unique to tech.
Neuro divergence isn't an excuse for abusive behaviour. Especially when it's doubled down on.
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William Pietrireplied to Esther Payne :bisexual_flag: last edited by
I'm not saying he's not entitled to speak up. I'm not even saying he's up to no good. I'm saying that his approach, to open with a paragraph of deeply biased nonsense treated neutrally, does not lead me to trust he's going to do something good with the answers, especially when he offers no explanation and has no bio.
I mean, maybe he is and maybe he isn't. But I'm not going to spend my time helping his project until I know the intent.
Doesn't really matter now, though, as he's blocked me. Which does not help convince me his intent was benign.
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@drewdevault part of being a community leader is being sensitive to how one's actions will be perceived. This can be more difficult for some neurodivergent people, but it is often still possible. If a leader can't do that, it is, as the kids say, a skill issue, even if different neurotypes rely on different skills to achieve it.
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@drewdevault @SuperDicq stealing a kiss is not wrong to a lot of people, in that sense you are the divergent one not him
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@sun @SuperDicq an unwanted kiss is sexual assault, and has been prosecuted as such before the law. Consent and bodily autonomy *matter*.
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Tab :godot: :git: :linux:replied to Drew DeVault last edited by
@drewdevault I consider myself neurodivergent but a psychologist so this is my uninformed opinion.
Seems reasonable that having thought processes different from the norm leads to different intuition, and different life experiences (sheltered) which lead to different beliefs.
As I understood these are now his former beliefs.
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Drew DeVaultreplied to Tab :godot: :git: :linux: last edited by
@tab he still holds these beliefs
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@drewdevault
As someone who is neurodivergent, RMS can completely fuck off.
One thing worth noting is that sometimes the least accepting/accommodating people are other neurodivergent people. After all, I managed to surpass these issues, so why can't you? TBH it took me awhile to notice the behavior in myself and start to correct it. However, I just can't square that with how much of an asshole RMS is.
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Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:replied to William Pietri last edited by [email protected]
I don't blame Drew for using the block button. You came in fairly aggressively and immediately came in in the attack.
Drew's often spoken up about abuse in tech and hacker spaces. How Drew chooses to react to aggression is up to Drew. You came in to Drew's thread .
I get you don't trust Drew and you don't know Drew. But I don't think Drew's wrong asking on here.
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Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:replied to Esther Payne :bisexual_flag: last edited by
@williampietri We've got serious sustainability issues in tech and excusing abusive behaviour doesn't help some projects long term.
We all need to take a moment and try to not react instantly. I include myself in this.
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PuddleOfKittensreplied to Drew DeVault last edited by
@drewdevault this is kind of like discussions on corporations: either you're held to moral responsibilities, or you're muzzled for the safety of others because you can't/won't restrain yourself. To permit someone to join your community is to assume they're at least capable of learning how to follow the rules, if they don't know yet. Ignoring their rule-breaking outright won't help them learn, so criticism/explaining is usually the appropriate response.
"Neurodivergent" is a broad term though.
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@drewdevault @SuperDicq The majority can be wrong yeah, it's just funny that you can't really chalk that particular thing up to neurodivergence. What else is the majority wrong about?
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William Pietrireplied to Esther Payne :bisexual_flag: last edited by
@onepict I don't blame him, but I also don't think I owed him more than he got. My reply to him was straightforward, with no invective about him and no assumptions about his motives. Try rewriting that paragraph to be about black people and see if you think that an opening like still deserves hugs from affected communities or the people who love them. Especially from a white guy who offers zero bio and zero explanation.
Depending on Drew's intent, I don't think he's wrong asking. But even assuming he's aiming to speak up about abuse, I think he's wrong to start that by opening with a studiously neutral take on a deeply harmful biased argument. There are reasons we don't casually repeat misinformation, abuse, and the like.
I also think both that behavior and his intolerance of honest reaction are going to harm even the best of the possible projects there, because it's going to bias the answers he gets significantly. Which makes me question either his intent or his competence in dealing with this stuff.
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@drewdevault honestly not much. IMO women have it way worse.
Most I can think of is one person insisted on calling me mentally ill when they learned I had autism. They got banned very quickly once it was clear it wasn't just an honest mistake (I.e. we tried explaining *why* you shouldn't do that). So I guess that's the step that helps most.
But that's just a thing that happened once. I wouldn't call it pervasive, at least not in the communities that I'm in. -
@sun @SuperDicq the majority are not wrong. It is wrong to kiss someone without their consent. It is wrong to violate someone's boundaries and violate their bodily autonomy.
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Ásthar (Elle/They) ⛤replied to Drew DeVault last edited by
@drewdevault As a neurodivergent person myself, you lost me in the first bit, so I'm going to ask: in which way does neurodivergence explain his harmful behaviours?