"Richard Stallman's problematic behavior, particularly with respect to his views on sexual harassment, sexual assault, and sexualizing minors, are best explained by his (supposed) neurodivergence, and to call for his censure on this basis is discrimina...
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bram dingelstad :nb_flag:replied to Drew DeVault last edited by
@drewdevault i'm neurodivergent, his behaviour is not related or relevant in the context of neurodiversity
problematic behaviour is what it is: problematic.
there are a lot of neurodivergent people out there that are able to carry themselves in a way that doesn't make anyone unsafe or harm victims of sexual assault.
making neurodivergence an excuse for this behaviour only worsens the perception of neurodiversity in my opinion.
Richard Stallman should be held accountable, regardless
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@drewdevault My first question: Who are you and what are you doing? I see no bio here or on your website, and you open with enraging horseshit. What makes this worth someone's time?
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✨🏳️⚧️Timelordiroh :she_her:🇵🇸replied to Drew DeVault last edited by
@drewdevault being neurodivergent is no excuse for creating a hostile environment. People using that as a crutch/excuse are harmful to neurodivergent people. It is the responsibility of everyone to make sure they create a welcoming environment and call out anyone who isn't doing their part.
(I'm autistic, ADHD, probably a little dyslexic. None of those give me any excuse.)
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@[email protected] Stallman has the firm belief that teenagers are mentally the same as adults and treating them like children is infantilizing. This is a viewpoint that is very relatable for a lot of neurodiverse people, including me.
A lot of high functioning (not sure if that is the correct word) neurodiverse people are often said to be "very mature for their age" and that is true. As such my decision making and self sufficiency did not significantly change during puberty, as I could in fact already be considered "mentally adult" as a teenager. It's very likely that Stallman was once of also one those children who fits into this category because I can relate to a lot of arguments Stallman makes quite well.
For example I thought it was stupid that I had to wait until 18 to be allowed to vote. I was definitely already mentally mature enough to make an informed decision on politics way before that time, this is proven by the fact that most of the political ideals that I've had since being a young teenager have stayed pretty consistent with me throughout my adulthood.
I know people don't like to hear this, but you can apply the same reasoning to sexual consent. Some people are mentally mature enough to be able to make informed decisions when it comes to sexual consent before they reach their respective region's acceptable age of consent. They will then feel infantilized by the system and I think those feelings are valid.
There are also definitely cases where a relationship between a teenager and an adult work out completely fine. For example my father started dating a 15 year old teenager at age 27. This was definitely not considered socially acceptable at the time, but they have been together for nearly 25 years now.
Anyway back to the point, I am aware that age based laws and regulations exists because not every teenager is mentally mature enough like I was. We as a society decided to make some kind of cut-off point to protect the ones that aren't ready yet so teenagers do not make decisions that they regret or get taken advantage of.
I personally do not think this is the best solution, because I agree that this way of thinking does unfairly exclude mentally mature enough teenagers from a lot of things that life has to offer (like voting, driving a car, viewing certain types of media and having consensual sex).
I don't try to argue against this as harshly like Stallman does, because I consider the current solution imperfect but still adequate for the problems we're trying to solve.
Anyway back to the point I think Stallman, due to his neurodivergence, probably has an underdeveloped ability to look at situations like this from the viewpoint of other someone else's experience being a teenager.
He probably assumes that all teenagers are as mentally mature as he was back then and that's probably where most of his viewpoints come from. -
@SuperDicq there's a lot to unpack in this (and thanks for writing it, I agree with some parts, not with others, but it's articulate and reasonably stated), but I can't help but assume you're responding to a best-faith interpretation of Stallman's remarks. What I'm curious is whether or not you can draw *patterns* from the long-term trends in his speech: the cases he remarks upon, the people he defends, the details he fixates on. (maybe a good opportunity to review my earlier article on him)
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@SuperDicq and if these patterns support the interpretation that RMS displays problematic behaviors for which he should be held accountable
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@drewdevault Being neurodivergent is no excuse for behavior like that. We all live in the same society to treat each other with respect and while those social contracts might be harder for others to remember/grasp it does not excuse their behavior.
Context: I'm autistic and have an autistic 11 year old boy. I try to teach him respect for his fellow humans moreso than most other things. The stakes are MUCH higher for him if he forgets those contracts, even for a moment in the wrong setting.
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@drewdevault I've heard psychophobia and I think it fits
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@bbjubjub @stacyharper I'm reluctant to use this one because psycho has negative connotations in english (to the point where I might consider it a slur)
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Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:replied to SuperDicq last edited by@SuperDicq @drewdevault Well consent isn't just an age thing though, it's also a question of position/power.
So even if people would have full maturity for consent under 18, someone over 18 can (and honestly given the massive power gap, very likely would) abuse their position over a minor.
It's why there's the notion of "free and explicit consent". -
Drew DeVaultreplied to Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: last edited by
@lanodan @SuperDicq there is also a throughline in RMS's remarks generally wherein he does not understand power dynamics with respect to sex: between a minor and an adult, a teacher and a student, an employer and an employee
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Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:replied to William Pietri last edited by
@williampietri @drewdevault Well for one thing Drew created SourceHut.
He's more than entitled to speak up on the fediverse even without what he's given to the community.
sourcehut - the hacker's forge
sourcehut is a network of useful open source tools for software project maintainers and collaborators, including git repos, bug tracking, continuous integration, and mailing lists.
(sourcehut.org)
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Mark Shane Haydenreplied to Drew DeVault last edited by
@drewdevault suggesting that the comfort and safety of women must be compromised to accommodate ND people is a pretty messed up take. Calling out inappropriate behaviour of a ND person, when done appropriately and offering help to resolve the situation, *is* being supportive of ND people as well as others.
Unfortunately what happens all too often is that the toxic person in question refuses to acknowledge what they are doing is wrong and is unwilling to improve the situation and uses this "ableism" argument as an excuse to do so. This is BS. If a sociopath kills someone they still go to jail to be separated from society to protect us from harm, and hopefully undergo some degree of rehabilitation. Perhaps it is an extreme comparison but the same logic holds true here.
We cannot provide a safe environment by excusing toxic behaviour from *anyone*. When that behaviour comes from a ND person it means we may have to address things differently but they still have to be addressed.
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WaitingToCompilereplied to Drew DeVault last edited by
@drewdevault Something I've said quite a few times is that sexism is not a symptom of autism. Writing this sort of behaviour off as "caused by" neurodivergence is itself ableist, I'm not a huge fan of the narrative that I have "the neurodevelopmental disoder that makes you a bigot".
And I fundamentally disagree with the idea that the pervasive sexism in tech is because of the high incidence of neurodiversity. It's because tech broadly operated as a boys club for decades and those norms linger.
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Neurodivergent members of the free software community: what are some forms of discrimination and ableism that you have experienced in our community? What are some steps that have helped, or could help, ease your participation?
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@[email protected] Personally the only pattern that I see here is Stallman's hyperfixation on words and their meanings in a similar trend to GNU's famous "words to avoid" list.
I'm think he is aware of power dynamics and coercion. But those things are not physical violence, so he does not consider them to fit under the umbrella of (sexual) assault because in his mind assault is a word used for exclusively physical violence.
While Stallman is hyperfixated on getting other people to start using the correct words for stuff he sounds like he's defending people who have committed crimes. But all he's doing is just trying to get people to use the correct words, which I consider very neurodivergent behavior.
In your post I have the most issues with this statement:At these events, in these private homes, he may be afforded many opportunities to privacy with vulnerable people, including minors that, in his view, can consent to having sex with adults.
I think this specifically is a very disingenuous and unacceptable statement. I think if you knew Stallman you would not be making implications such as this. He definitely does not want to take advantage of vulnerable people. -
@SuperDicq I agree that he has a common pattern of word fixation, but I will state that even when his remarks are interpreted as such it is harmful. However, he justifies and re-enforces his word fixations from beliefs rooted deeper: for example, his defense of Roy Moore endorses grooming of minors. Moreover, when he downplays sexual assault, it is not only because of his word fixation, but re-enforced by beliefs that erode the norms of consent: he thinks, for example, that "stealing a kiss"[..]
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@SuperDicq is not wrong. He also definitely does *not* understand how power dynamics erode consent: he dismisses a clear case of quid-pro-quo, for example.
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Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:replied to Drew DeVault last edited by
@drewdevault the thing with RMS is that there were people around him, some who didn't call him out.
But some folks in his circles did tell him his behaviour was problematic. But he didn't feel inclined to listen to them.
It took major public attention to even get an apology. That behaviour over years helped to contribute to the attitude in Free Software.
But that attitude isn't unique to tech.
Neuro divergence isn't an excuse for abusive behaviour. Especially when it's doubled down on.
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William Pietrireplied to Esther Payne :bisexual_flag: last edited by
I'm not saying he's not entitled to speak up. I'm not even saying he's up to no good. I'm saying that his approach, to open with a paragraph of deeply biased nonsense treated neutrally, does not lead me to trust he's going to do something good with the answers, especially when he offers no explanation and has no bio.
I mean, maybe he is and maybe he isn't. But I'm not going to spend my time helping his project until I know the intent.
Doesn't really matter now, though, as he's blocked me. Which does not help convince me his intent was benign.