"Richard Stallman's problematic behavior, particularly with respect to his views on sexual harassment, sexual assault, and sexualizing minors, are best explained by his (supposed) neurodivergence, and to call for his censure on this basis is discrimina...
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Also, while I have your attention, do you feel that terms "neurodiverse", "neurodivergent", and "neurotypical" are the most appropriate contemporary vocabulary for this discourse?
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PuddleOfKittensreplied to Drew DeVault last edited by [email protected]
@drewdevault neurodiversity is orthogonal to being an asshole. I learned that the hard way, be very careful not to excuse all asshole-ish behaviour with "it's just their mental problems", or they'll use it against you and you'll end up stepping on the rusty nails they left pointing face-up on the living-room floor you both frequently walk through barefoot despite you SPECIFICALLY telling them not to, and then they'll try to gaslight you and act like you're crazy.
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Also is there a -phobia sort of word for fear or hatred towards neurodivergence
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@drewdevault neurodivergent & neurotypical (shortened to ND & NT) are indeed the preferred vocabulary today. Neurodivergent is an umbrella term inclusive of autism, ADHD, BPD, OCD and many dys* conditions. Neurodiverse & neurospicy are more contentious so, although people self-describing with them is valid, I prefer not to use these words to talk about other people.
For autism specifically, you can use autistic & allistic. Some ND folks resent the fact that the term "neurodivergent" is increasingly used as a euphemism for autistic exclusively, erasing the other forms.
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@quinze "neurospicy" is great lol
Thanks for the feedback!
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If no one offers a better term I'm going to coin the word "neurotypicalism"
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Mark Shane Haydenreplied to Drew DeVault last edited by
@drewdevault I think that this argument borders on being offensive to neurodivergent people. It suggests that ND people can't help themselves or strive to improve and correct harmful behaviour. Whether the people making such a statement intend to or not it suggests they view ND people as forever something like a child or pet, but maybe worse because even children and pets can learn from mistakes.
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@drewdevault while it doesn't excuse behaviour, I think it does grant people a do-over if they fuck up and apologise. Stallman apologised and admitted he was wrong, so for me that's enough.
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Another question to stimulate discussion:
If we take at face value that sexist and problematic behavior in FOSS is, at least partially, explained by a high incidence of neurodivergence in this community, and it's ableist to condemn behavior which is explainable by neurodivergence: is avoiding such criticism and censure on this basis putting the comfort of neurodivergent participants ahead of the comfort of women in our spaces, and if so, is that appropriate?
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@Huubje he didn't actually meaningfully apologize, and, importantly, did not change his behavior
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One more note: I will be drawing from this discussion in future writings. I will assume that anyone participating is comfortable being anonymously paraphrased, if you are comfortable being quoted verbatim or being cited as the source of a quote please let me know (bearing in mind that this is going to open you up to a lot of reactionary abuse)
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bram dingelstad :nb_flag:replied to Drew DeVault last edited by
@drewdevault i'm neurodivergent, his behaviour is not related or relevant in the context of neurodiversity
problematic behaviour is what it is: problematic.
there are a lot of neurodivergent people out there that are able to carry themselves in a way that doesn't make anyone unsafe or harm victims of sexual assault.
making neurodivergence an excuse for this behaviour only worsens the perception of neurodiversity in my opinion.
Richard Stallman should be held accountable, regardless
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@drewdevault My first question: Who are you and what are you doing? I see no bio here or on your website, and you open with enraging horseshit. What makes this worth someone's time?
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✨🏳️⚧️Timelordiroh :she_her:🇵🇸replied to Drew DeVault last edited by
@drewdevault being neurodivergent is no excuse for creating a hostile environment. People using that as a crutch/excuse are harmful to neurodivergent people. It is the responsibility of everyone to make sure they create a welcoming environment and call out anyone who isn't doing their part.
(I'm autistic, ADHD, probably a little dyslexic. None of those give me any excuse.)
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@[email protected] Stallman has the firm belief that teenagers are mentally the same as adults and treating them like children is infantilizing. This is a viewpoint that is very relatable for a lot of neurodiverse people, including me.
A lot of high functioning (not sure if that is the correct word) neurodiverse people are often said to be "very mature for their age" and that is true. As such my decision making and self sufficiency did not significantly change during puberty, as I could in fact already be considered "mentally adult" as a teenager. It's very likely that Stallman was once of also one those children who fits into this category because I can relate to a lot of arguments Stallman makes quite well.
For example I thought it was stupid that I had to wait until 18 to be allowed to vote. I was definitely already mentally mature enough to make an informed decision on politics way before that time, this is proven by the fact that most of the political ideals that I've had since being a young teenager have stayed pretty consistent with me throughout my adulthood.
I know people don't like to hear this, but you can apply the same reasoning to sexual consent. Some people are mentally mature enough to be able to make informed decisions when it comes to sexual consent before they reach their respective region's acceptable age of consent. They will then feel infantilized by the system and I think those feelings are valid.
There are also definitely cases where a relationship between a teenager and an adult work out completely fine. For example my father started dating a 15 year old teenager at age 27. This was definitely not considered socially acceptable at the time, but they have been together for nearly 25 years now.
Anyway back to the point, I am aware that age based laws and regulations exists because not every teenager is mentally mature enough like I was. We as a society decided to make some kind of cut-off point to protect the ones that aren't ready yet so teenagers do not make decisions that they regret or get taken advantage of.
I personally do not think this is the best solution, because I agree that this way of thinking does unfairly exclude mentally mature enough teenagers from a lot of things that life has to offer (like voting, driving a car, viewing certain types of media and having consensual sex).
I don't try to argue against this as harshly like Stallman does, because I consider the current solution imperfect but still adequate for the problems we're trying to solve.
Anyway back to the point I think Stallman, due to his neurodivergence, probably has an underdeveloped ability to look at situations like this from the viewpoint of other someone else's experience being a teenager.
He probably assumes that all teenagers are as mentally mature as he was back then and that's probably where most of his viewpoints come from. -
@SuperDicq there's a lot to unpack in this (and thanks for writing it, I agree with some parts, not with others, but it's articulate and reasonably stated), but I can't help but assume you're responding to a best-faith interpretation of Stallman's remarks. What I'm curious is whether or not you can draw *patterns* from the long-term trends in his speech: the cases he remarks upon, the people he defends, the details he fixates on. (maybe a good opportunity to review my earlier article on him)
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@SuperDicq and if these patterns support the interpretation that RMS displays problematic behaviors for which he should be held accountable
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@drewdevault Being neurodivergent is no excuse for behavior like that. We all live in the same society to treat each other with respect and while those social contracts might be harder for others to remember/grasp it does not excuse their behavior.
Context: I'm autistic and have an autistic 11 year old boy. I try to teach him respect for his fellow humans moreso than most other things. The stakes are MUCH higher for him if he forgets those contracts, even for a moment in the wrong setting.
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@drewdevault I've heard psychophobia and I think it fits
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@bbjubjub @stacyharper I'm reluctant to use this one because psycho has negative connotations in english (to the point where I might consider it a slur)