once again I fucking hate dtolnay for blocking reflection in rust so that his macro work doesn't become obsolete
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@aud absolutely, it's a whole little niche, there are LOTS of examples of it. sometimes people create software projects because they want the attention that comes with being at the center of the community that will grow around them. this is a fundamentally ego-driven reason. we need to build out vocabulary around it to drag it into popular awareness and move towards solutions.
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@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] I wish we didn't live in a society that glorified racist war mongers. I also want a unicorn, I guess.
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@aud that is how we see it too fwiw, but we haven't used it deeply enough to know if its escape hatches are any good
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@aud @ireneista i use monopolistic but that's more referring to the processes/architecture by which the sinecure is assured than the act and the intent itself
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d@nny "disc@" mc²replied to d@nny "disc@" mc² last edited by
@aud @ireneista things can be monopolistic by accident for example
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@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] Any successful attempt to start building out a new community with a new language... would be subject to the same corporate and shitty person pressure. It's also possibly the case that some people hid how shitty they were at first (or just changed a bit once they got into higher positions of power). It's hard to build something good that lasts in this pro-corporate-pro-war-monger environment.
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@aud Being able to do Zig metaprogramming in Zig is definitely my favorite Zig feature.
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@hipsterelectron @aud yeah, or "hegemonic" is a nice word because it just means that the thing you apply it to is asserting more influence than is proper for it.... and implicitly that means more than is proper, in the judgement of you as the one saying it. so that forestalls argument heh
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@[email protected] I'm also going to be really petty here and say that I think rust becomes much less aesthetically pleasing when you have to decorate the hell out of it with a trillion macro invocations
It is certainly less readable if you only know Rust and not the metaprogramming. Good luck figuring out what a macro does if you're new to them. -
@hipsterelectron @aud but neither "monopolistic" nor "hegemonic" draw a distinction between the situation where a corporation does this for financial profit, and the one where an individual does it because it's the only way they know to get anywhere close to the warmth of human kindness which would otherwise not be part of their life
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@aud even if it were woo the placebo effect is real and effective (which is very cool, go human brains).
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@[email protected] I'm currently annoyed because I'm writing serialization functions and basically you can implement your own Serialization trait (good!) but once you 'use' the Serializer in any way, that's the only way you can use it. So I'm having to be careful with nested objects and how I attempt to serialize them when 'flattening' things manually.
It's just like... I don't know. The model for serde is weird and I don't like it. Some things I like (theValueenum, which can contain a recursive version of itself: good!) but. -
@[email protected] right? I feel the same way. My brain tries to kill the placebo effect sometimes though, which is frustrating, by being like "WHERE'S THE RESEARCH BITCH"
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@ireneista @aud @jonny i didn't know about it at all until a few months ago and i felt incredibly upset and disillusioned
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@aud yepppppppp.
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@aud I haven't done any macro programming at all. Some of the template stuff. I hate that it looks too much like C++. There are even some false friends, which I think is objectively bad.
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@hipsterelectron @aud @jonny it is upsetting and disillusioning for sure
this was by no means the only topic on our mind when we wrote https://irenes.space/leaves/2024-09-29-technology-community-idealism but it was in there
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@[email protected] I like how #chapelLang handles this type of stuff (back when I was writing more of it, which was a while ago admittedly); at the time, your serialization/deserialization stuff was the same stuff used to print to stdout, for instance, so you didn't have to write multiple variants...
Like one does with Debug and serde. -
@[email protected] I really dislike macros for a lot of reasons, but that's my core reason: they can make it substantially more difficult to figure out what the hell is going on unless A. you can read the macro, and/or B. read the intermediate (which is obviously not available until you attempt to compile).
Not that I think the idea of metaprogramming or whatever it's called is bad, but that I think rust's model is. -
@aud sigh Lisp "solved" this problem 70 years ago
except not really because we still have the problem and hardly anybody uses Lisp
it's frustrating how it keeps coming up
