Should a single company control the Social Web?

infinite love ⴳ

@evan the rewording is better, but i still think that "problem space" is not sufficiently defined. you call out "social networking protocol" specifically, but i think part of the problem is that there are people interested in activitypub that aren't as interested in social networks as you are. the relatively poor adoption of C2S as a standard API for managing web resources is either insignificant or very significant, depending on who you ask.

McNeely

@evan I mean this question in the least antagonistic way possible, but how many of the perceived problems with AP are due to the flagship implementation (Mastodon) vs the actual protocol?

One of my worries is that developers are so focused on compatibility they end up repeating acknowledged mistakes of the past.

Evan Prodromou

@McNeely that question is fine. I agree with the framing; people who experiment with, for example, different kinds of activities or content types can feel frustrated when Mastodon handles them poorly. Finding the right solution here is important to the future of the Fediverse, and probably the future of Mastodon.

Evan Prodromou

There seems to be some misunderstanding on my intention here.

I am discussing why some people find my upbeat take on AP uncomfortable. This is not a discussion about the qualities of ActivityPub nor is it an invitation to debate the characteristics of ActivityPub.

If you would like to talk trash about ActivityPub, there are lots of places where that conversation is welcome, but this thread is not one of them.

dbat :godot: (Viva Ukraine)

@evan who voted yes? shivvvver.

Evan Prodromou

@dbat Well, at least the Bluesky team and their investors.

Bluesky raises $15M Series A, plans to launch subscriptions | TechCrunch

Decentralized social app Bluesky announced on Thursday that it has raised a $15 million Series A round, following its $8 million seed raise last year.

TechCrunch (techcrunch.com)

Evan Prodromou

@trwnh I don't think it's an unfair framing, but I'd be happy to read more positive posts about AP from others, if you think I've missed them.

infinite love ⴳ

@evan my point was more that “negativity” is not necessarily targeted at AP, but at the architecture and ecosystem of the present fediverse. people expressing their frustrations or criticisms should be seen as an opportunity to improve pain points at a protocol or profile level. one example is possibly spinning up a task force or report to document the lifecycles of resources and objects as they are created and deleted. another example is mapping out required properties and associated behaviors.

infinite love ⴳ

@evan basically, people want to see considerations go into one or more formally defined “protocols” that can be signaled or negotiated client-to-client or actor-to-actor. if i want to do a chess extension, i need to know that the other actor can play. if i want to do e2ee messaging, i need my keys negotiated between clients instead of actors. and if i want to make “posts” then i need to agree with other actors what a “post” is.

i’d be happy to bring this up at the cg meeting next week…

infinite love ⴳ

@evan at its core, AP lets you do a lot of really cool stuff — practically unbounded! which is both good from the perspective of what it enables you to do and build, but also it’s a lot to take in for any prospective users of AP in building software. i think as long as AP exists in the domain of the W3C, we have a responsibility to pave those paths so that people have an easier time understanding how everything fits together.

:PUA: Shlee fucked around and

@trwnh @evan The purpose of a system is what it does - Stafford Beer

Evan Prodromou

@trwnh If you'd like to convince me that your negativity about AP is justified, and my positivity is off-track, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

infinite love ⴳ

@evan your positivity is justified, and also i do not intend it in a negative way when i mention criticisms. i am overall positive about AP, and i want to address identified issues as best as possible and as early as possible. if i didn't fundamentally believe in open standards, then i wouldn't bother putting in any of the work, time, or effort that i have in documentation or outreach, and i would quit my roles in various communities and teams. i **really** don't intend any antagonism or slight.

infinite love ⴳ

@evan however, i recognize that this branch of conversation may have ceased being productive, so i'll stop here and raise the aforementioned points on the CG meeting agenda instead.

Supergrobi

@evan @trwnh Evan to me it sounds a bit as if constructive criticism (which is fundamental to progress and freedom) is taken by you as some kind of partisan attack on AP here. I don't know what conversations the two of you had before, though...

Evan Prodromou

@supergrobi sure. So, I'm talking about something more general about how my positive attitude rankles people, and @trwnh is bringing up very specific criticisms of ActivityPub.

I am definitely open to a's thoughts on AP; they are one of the smartest people thinking about the protocol today, and I've enjoyed working with them on the weekly issue triage for AP, as well as coauthoring the AP+Webfinger CG report. a also did technical review for the ActivityPub book I wrote.

Evan Prodromou

@supergrobi @trwnh I definitely appreciate their idea of making a collection of profiles for AP to make it easier to build interoperable systems. I think there are better times and places to discuss that idea; it's not up to me personally to decide. As a suggests, a discussion in the SocialCG is a good next step.

Evan Prodromou

@supergrobi @trwnh anyway, thanks for the note.

Evan Prodromou

@supergrobi @trwnh in general, my position is that there are formal systems for people to give feedback and suggestions on ActivityPub, such as GitHub issues on the AP repository; discussions on SocialHub; posts to the SocialCG mailing list; discussions in the SocialCG meetings; creating FEPs; and creating extensions outside of the FEP process.

Evan Prodromou

@supergrobi @trwnh I engage in discussions about AP on this account, but it is my personal account, and not an official feedback channel.