Look, I get that you feel like your protocol is better than the other one, and you're probably right.
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Mastodon Migrationreplied to Dmitri Ravinoff last edited by
Agree with this. The whole 'fire escape' analogy is very convincing, but like all analogies, what if it is completely fallacious? There is no proof of concept that multiple relays will work. Certainly it won't work without Bluesky engineering cooperation. If it ever does work, it is inconceivable that Bluesky will not be able to hobble it if they become adversarial. It does people no good, and potentially great harm to promise fire escapes if they are escapes to nowhere.
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May Likes Torontoreplied to Mastodon Migration last edited by
@mastodonmigration @toxomat Proof of concept to be able to fundraise for interoperability. There is also value in proving the lack of interoperability in Bluesky, so people are less complacent.
People on BSky are convinced that it's currently decentralized.
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Dmitri Ravinoffreplied to May Likes Toronto last edited by
@mayintoronto
I don't think this is about interoperability. Also I don't think we need to "prove" something here - it's all very transparent. Including the fact that ATProto isn't and can't be decentralized with all the ramifications this has for "billionaire-proofing". I get large part of the info for my judgement from Christine Lemmer-Webber: https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky/
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M [email protected] shared this topic
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@toxomat @mayintoronto @mastodonmigration I don't think it's unfair for people to voice their concerns or poke holes in the "Free Our Feeds" mission. In fact, I've done so here --> https://malici.ous.computer/@shellsharks/statuses/01JHN5A9844W3SMPE2A39K0V4J (and via blog: https://shellsharks.com/notes/2025/01/15/bluesky-wont-free-your-feed). After all, they're looking for public money.
I think their are unfortunately plenty of "purists"/fedi-zealots who would still be mad, even if Bluesky + "FreeOurFeeds" succeeded in billionaire-proofing social media, and that's too bad. But I also think most of us just want something to work, and if it ended up being FoF+Bsky, then great! But knowing what we know, it just doesn't seem likely. And since we know what FoF knows, it gives off a strong, grift smell...
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@shellsharks @toxomat @mastodonmigration This is an excellent take that's super well-written. Thanks for writing it!
Honestly, I just want to see people being able to fundraise that amount money for nerdy things like interoperability infrastructure. Coming from corporate tech, it feels like there's essentially infinite money being poured into this VC-PE hot potato game. $4M and $30M feels like such a tiny number next to the $700M for BSKY.
I'm trying to stay optimistic here about how this MIGHT change atproto, or at least expose it extremely publicly, backed by people who have the following and the marketing chops to get the message to normal people.
I figure the worse that happens is they try it for a bit. A bunch of tech workers get paid to build stuff and do research. The thing collapses. It's a part of learning to organize. Something better will grow out of it.
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@mayintoronto @toxomat @mastodonmigration As long as, "we tried decentralized social media and it didn't work" isn't the public perception when Bluesky fails and then the FoF relay also unsurprisingly fails. I think that's the big point a lot of us are trying to make right now. Not that Bluesky is bad. Or that the tech is bad. Or that ActivityPub is objectively "better", or w/e else. We're only saying that...
- Bluesky is not (currently) decentralized
- AT as a protocol does not appear to actually support meaningful decentralization (without having insane amounts of capital - as evidenced by FoF funding goals)
- Without meaning decentralization, AT can not serve as a foundation to a truly billionaire-proofed social network
Oh, and I guess point 4 would be that the Fediverse, for all its faults, already achieves these three things. It's already meaningfully decentralized and billionaire-proof. The problem is, billionaires don't care about us because we're such a small insignificant part of the social ecosystem (so far).
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@shellsharks
All that plus what could be achieved if these funds were spent for UX / onboarding / new apps in Activity Pub space. You could try to kickstart small viable businesses for related services. You could sell a Pi-based, preconfiguerd box that you just plug in to run your own instance...
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May Likes Torontoreplied to Dmitri Ravinoff last edited by
@toxomat I 100% agree with you. Why haven't we raised that money yet?
Answer: It's a different, much bigger pool of money. You're not the target audience for FOF. ActivityPub is full of tiny projects, mostly individuals, and that's great! But you're not going to raise $30M with that approach.
That's really the point I'm trying to make. FOF are organizing through people who lead organizations with a whole lot of reach and access to funders. They're building a common shiny bucket for people to throw their money.
We might want to imitate that to make sure the people who build great things for the Fedi can survive under modern capitalism.
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Dmitri Ravinoffreplied to May Likes Toronto last edited by
@mayintoronto
Ok, what I don't get is this: Why can't FOF do exactly that, even with the same stated goal, but propose to push a technology with much better chances of getting there?
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Mastodon Migrationreplied to May Likes Toronto last edited by
@mayintoronto @toxomat @shellsharks
"Why haven't we raised the money yet?"
Great question. And organization like this should exist for the Fediverse. Maybe "FederateOurFeeds" would be a good name? (sarcasm kinda).
The reason why it has not been done is because we don't have a stable of marquee names able to engage the tech media with a slick pitch. Most of the Fediverse advocates are engineers and grassroots folks that don't play well in the glossy corporate media world.
more...
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Mastodon Migrationreplied to Mastodon Migration last edited by [email protected]
@mayintoronto @toxomat @shellsharks
And the reason we don't attract such folks is because it is truly a public social media network, and there is very limited opportunity to get famous and make money off of it. Public systems just don't take kindly to self promotion and enrichment.
more...
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Mastodon Migrationreplied to Mastodon Migration last edited by
@mayintoronto @toxomat @shellsharks
Don't believe this? Just try to start a Fedi Our Feeds Foundation and watch the hostility from this Social Web Foundation.
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Mastodon Migrationreplied to Dmitri Ravinoff last edited by
@toxomat @mayintoronto @shellsharks
No profit in it. See response next to yours to this same comment.
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Dmitri Ravinoffreplied to Mastodon Migration last edited by
@mastodonmigration
Briefly considering to use their website for that
. Kidding. Ok my takeaway from @mayintoronto is that it's not a zero sum-game. Sit back, watch, learn. But I am dying to read @pluralistic 's take on that, because I know he totally gets impact of tech. protocol on socio-economics. -
@mastodonmigration
This has been a nourishing discussion. Do they have those on blsky too? On this topic I find their account and one feed and it's mostly just loudspeaker-bluuts (or however these are called).
@mayintoronto @shellsharks
