With respect to #ActivityPub

Hrefna (DHC)

@noah ATProto thinks so. Last I checked that’s where they wanted to standardize

Noah Kennedy

@hrefna yeah, for a protocol like ap or atproto, the ietf is probably as well-setup as you're going to get

Laurens Hof

@lily @puppygirlhornypost2 @jenniferplusplus @hrefna @benpate

Think its worth looking at the PDSes from ATProto here. Adverse Interoperability is a thing, and the Bluesky people are actually not that adverse at all currently to experiments. If you're looking to extend a protocol because of the value of the userbase, atproto might be just as logical of a choice.

thinking in this direction https://berjon.com/ap-at/, but instead of AP its a modified version of AP

smallcircles (Humanity Now 🕊)

@benpate @lily @jenniferplusplus @puppygirlhornypost2
@hrefna

> We must build on AP

That is but one of many options and variations that circulate. There's quite a few people pondering some kind vNext social protocol, but whether there is any alignment for a collective effort should first be investigated. What do we want of this protocol? Until then there cannot be MUSTs.

@helge put it well in https://mymath.rocks/objects/8ba68883-a0f7-4ee2-874e-27dc9eb514bd in that the DX should shield from all these technical layers.

smallcircles (Humanity Now 🕊)

@iacore @hrefna

This is specifically addressed by considering the Fediverse to be part of a bottom up 3-stage standardization of which also the FEP is part, among others. Here there's no such thing as "control" but things bubble up to W3C from a decentralized ecosystem. See:

3-Stage Standards Process: Guaranteeing an open and decentralized ecosystem

Open ecosystem, open ecosystem, open ecosystem In various channels where the Standards Process is discussed there’s mention of a 2-stage structure that goes like: FEP → W3C. As I proposed many times before (like here, a…

SocialHub (socialhub.activitypub.rocks)

Ben Pate 🤘🏻

@smallcircles @lily @jenniferplusplus @puppygirlhornypost2 @hrefna @helge

Yeah, maybe "must" is too strong. I just don't see a viable way forward if we just throw *everything* away.

But what *could* we do to make development easier? I'd start with:

- a strict schema for objects and activities that defines what is a string, what's an object, and what's an array

- something better than HTTP sigs OMG

- real use cases for user-level interop, like FEP-3b86

Ben Pate 🤘🏻

@lily @puppygirlhornypost2 @jenniferplusplus @hrefna

"Strict" mode isn't a real thing -- it's just a fantasy of mine where we have actual definitions of what objects/properties are and how they're used.

Imagine something like "use strict" in Javascript applied to ActivityPub. (https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Strict_mode)

In the ActivityPub world, it would have saved me 80% of the code I wrote to get Emissary to Federate.

lily

@laurenshof @puppygirlhornypost2 @jenniferplusplus @hrefna @benpate my issue with atproto is that its vision is incompatible with how the fediverse operates
the fediverse forms a lot of natural circles based on how things federate while on atproto you see everything from everywhere which is not even a bad thing in itself, but combined with the main audience of bluesky (because that's the only noteworthy atproto implementation atm) (mostly ex-twitter users, where the culture is completely different and focused on numbers instead of interaction), it makes me feel alienated. it's that feeling that i'm interacting with people but there is no connection made

Ben Pate 🤘🏻

@lily @puppygirlhornypost2 @jenniferplusplus @hrefna

RIP LitePub: https://litepub.social

I think something like this is the most realistic way to simplify ActivityPub development, so it would be invaluable to understand why LitePub is now a ghost town.

If any of the elders here know the story of what happened there, this'd be a story worth telling.

Call it ActivityPub 2.1. It could start with some simple refactors to make all of our outbound messages rational and self-authenticating.

Ben Pate 🤘🏻

@lily @laurenshof @puppygirlhornypost2 @jenniferplusplus @hrefna

I don’t know if that’s because of the AT protocol or the community/culture of ex-Twitter users.

Same with Nostr (an interesting technical idea) vs. the Nostr community of crypto-bros and “don’t tread on me” / “free speech absolutists”

lily

@benpate @puppygirlhornypost2 @jenniferplusplus @hrefna @laurenshof i think it's both. when you see literally everything that's being talked about, that's so much stuff to be constantly paying attention to, and it gets hard to build meaningful connections

Ben Pate 🤘🏻

@lily @puppygirlhornypost2 @jenniferplusplus @hrefna @laurenshof yeah, I see that too. I also have a lot of trouble with updates on Macedon. For example, even in this thread, it’s hard to always know what’s happening in the conversation.

I blame that on the clients, and lazy UX design, and not ActivityPub itself. But who knows? The protocol could easily be skewing things in One Direction or another.

smallcircles (Humanity Now 🕊)

@benpate @lily @jenniferplusplus @puppygirlhornypost2 @hrefna @helge

Many points have been brought up in the course of the year and discussed in a variety of different contexts. Trouble is that all of that is now fragmented and dispersed.

Ideally we should exchange ideas and insights in a more central location. SocialHub may be too AP-themed for this.

I can offer forum space at https://discuss.coding.social and a dev portal at https://fedi.foundation and also Hedgedoc, Codeberg org, Matrix space.

smallcircles (Humanity Now 🕊)

@benpate @lily @jenniferplusplus @puppygirlhornypost2 @hrefna @helge

Note that I won't be direct member of the initiative but can facilitate it within Social Coding movement, where the initiative itself retains full independence.

smallcircles (Humanity Now 🕊)

@benpate @lily @jenniferplusplus @puppygirlhornypost2 @hrefna @helge

Note that I won't be direct member of the initiative but can facilitate it within Social Coding movement, where the initiative itself retains full independence.

The initiative falls within scope of the movement which is dedicated ultimately to the vision of the Social Web. "Social reimagined".

Seb Potter

@lily @puppygirlhornypost2 @jenniferplusplus @hrefna @benpate One way out of this particular chicken-and-egg conundrum is to provide a reference translation layer or proxying client that will provide compatibility with AP whilst allowing implementers time to migrate. Then you can make decisions about what subset of features to expose without having to burden your protocol with compatibility. Experience with AP suggests to me there's significant value in reference implementations.

Ben Pate 🤘🏻

@sebinthestars @lily @puppygirlhornypost2 @jenniferplusplus @hrefna

Depending on the specific changes/simplifications to AP, this could be an excellent solution... like a single you attach to your USB-A cables so they plug into a USB-C port.

Amber

@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] Can we replicate how that breaks power delivery by making it invalidate HTTP Signatu.. oh fuck. yeah im seeing a problem here

Ben Pate 🤘🏻

@puppygirlhornypost2 @sebinthestars @hrefna @jenniferplusplus @lily

*Depending on the specific changes...

Of course HTTP signatures throws a monkey-wrench in any migration plan (not to mention "Authorized Fetch")

But all of this is academic until we have a specific list of changes. I'm pretty certain (depending on the list) that we could chart a smooth-ish migration path forward.

I'm happy to write up my own thoughts for others to pile on to. We have to start somewhere, yeah?

Amber

@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] also although it might sound nihilistic to list out every potential problem it is actually worthwhile to come up with a list of "potential issues" to workaround.