Is the war in Gaza a civil war?
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Amir E. Aharoni last edited by
@aharoni Yeah, I get that.
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Jannekereplied to Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸 last edited by
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Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸replied to Janneke last edited by
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Jannekereplied to Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸 last edited by
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Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸replied to Janneke last edited by
@janneke @evan no argument that they are trying to colonize and settle Palestine, but the war isn’t happening in the settlements. It is happening in Gaza, which has not been consumed by Israel. It had a separate government, separate citizens, separate infrastructure, even though Israel is gatekeeper the two are not the same.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Scott M. Stolz last edited by
@scott Interesting!
I think the argument of the "one state reality" is that the territory that has been occupied and managed by a single government for almost 60 years, since 1967, is functionally a single state.
Even the proposed "two-state solution" from Oslo supposes a less-than-sovereign state in the West Bank and Gaza, with no military or border control.
Anyway, thanks for the in-depth response.
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Scott M. Stolzreplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by@Evan Prodromou I'll let people judge for themselves, but it comes down to this question:
Is Palestine being treated as an occupied territory, or is it being treated as equals with the same rights and privileges?
Your answer to that will tell you if they are de facto one state or two. -
Evan Prodromoureplied to Scott M. Stolz last edited by
@scott I disagree that this is a good rubric; I think there are sadly many examples in the world where a population are not treated with equal rights, and yet we consider them part of the same state.
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Mark Darbyshirereplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@evan Researching my answer for this poll, I'm sad but not surprised to see which countries have and haven't recognised the State of Palestine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine#/media/File:Palestine_recognition_only.svg
Case in point: my country supports a two-state solution but doesn't recognise Palestine as a country.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
So, a civil war is a war between parties within a single state. If you recognize both Israel and the State of Palestine, the War in Gaza is an international war. Or, perhaps, a war between a sovereign state, and some kind of perpetually occupied territory. But not within.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
But there is another pov, the so-called "one state reality", which says that after 65+ years of occupation of the West Bank and Gaza and East Jerusalem, with no end in sight and not even a promise of a truly sovereign Palestinian state, Israel/Palestine is a de facto single state. So, in this framing, the War in Gaza is a civil war between ethnic factions, or perhaps between a central government and a rebellious ethnic enclave.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
I find this framing appealing, even though I find the war unconscionable. It highlights the fact that Israel and Palestine might be inextricably entwined. And for some reason a fratricidal war at this level seems all the more tragic and self destructive.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by [email protected]
But the framing also means ignoring the existence of the State of Palestine, which has struggled so hard to come into the world.
And it also, surprisingly, cheapens the recognition of Israel within its borders. If the state's boundaries aren't where it says they are, but wherever the observer defines them, it undercuts that nation's right to define its own geography.
Just saying that the whole place is a hellish mush of Israel/Palestine denies either part the right to exist.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
So, I'm a qualified no. I think the civil war framing underlines the internality of the war, but it denies recognition to the two parts.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Mark Darbyshire last edited by
@markdarb mine either.
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@evan how can we see this as anything other than a proxy war with America on one side and Iran and Russia on the other? The people of Israel and Palestine continue to pay the price as the great powers fight over strategically important land.
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Brantley Harrisreplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@evan This is a war between Israel and Iran because Israel has normalized relations with other Arab states and that threatens Iranian regional standing significantly.
Iran sponsors terrorist organizations and knows Israel will respond oppressively. It’s PR of the worst sort. This context must be understood.
So technically a foreign-state sponsored insurrection and brutal response.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Brantley Harris last edited by
@deadwisdom to my eyes, it's an ethnic cleansing by an Kahanist government using starvation, infrastructure destruction and high civilian casualties to exterminate the Palestinian residents or force them to flee so Israel can annex the territory.
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Brantley Harrisreplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@evan Caveat: I'm speaking from a specifically objective geo-political, historical context.
So, I would say what you just described is a hard no.
The Israeli and Palestinian people overwhelmingly want peace and prosperity.
The Israeli government wants to find a way to to endless hostilities, and needs to do it with the support of the majority of western governments who would never allow such things.
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Brantley Harrisreplied to Brantley Harris last edited by
@evan "Ethnic cleansing", and "genocide" is definitely not the situation, and is language chosen for it's ironic and inflammatory effect.
If anything, Jews are by far the minority here. Look elsewhere in the middle-east, and the rest of the world to see their kind chased out even in modern times.
This stuff resonates with western socialist ideals (which I am usually very aligned to, btw). But it defies the context of the politics and history from the past 3000 years.