Is the war in Gaza a civil war?
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@aharoni if Israel/Palestine is de facto a single state, and if a civil war is a war between organized groups within the same state, I think there's a fair case to be made that the War in Gaza is a civil war.
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@evan is genocide
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@irenerd they're not mutually exclusive. Many genocides have taken place as part of a civil war.
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Amir E. Aharonireplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@evan OK... I wasn't familiar with this term. That's a very, very big if. It's an oversimplification, and it's somewhere on the spectrum between useless and harmful. So yes, I guess you could say I'm not a fan of this term. Not necessarily because it's not true; *in some ways* it is true. But I'm mostly not a fan because the actual reality of the number of states on that land cannot be usefully described in one microblogging post.
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infinite love ⴳreplied to Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸 last edited by
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Scott M. Stolzreplied to Evan Prodromou last edited byI'll put on my political science hat for a moment.
Since Palestine and Israel are administered separately and have separate leaders (de facto), for classification purposes, I would say that the war and fighting between the two is not a civil war. On the other hand, armed insurrection of Palestinians who oppose the current Palestinian regime would be engaged in civil war or rebellion. Â
That would be the technical definition, and not necessarily the political one.
Since some claim that Israel and Palestine are one state, they would claim it was a civil war based on legalities (de jure).
So there is a distinct difference between de facto and de jure in this case. Or put more simply, a difference between reality and what's on paper. -
Evan Prodromoureplied to Amir E. Aharoni last edited by
@aharoni Yeah, I get that.
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Jannekereplied to Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸 last edited by
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Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸replied to Janneke last edited by
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Jannekereplied to Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸 last edited by
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Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸replied to Janneke last edited by
@janneke @evan no argument that they are trying to colonize and settle Palestine, but the war isn’t happening in the settlements. It is happening in Gaza, which has not been consumed by Israel. It had a separate government, separate citizens, separate infrastructure, even though Israel is gatekeeper the two are not the same.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Scott M. Stolz last edited by
@scott Interesting!
I think the argument of the "one state reality" is that the territory that has been occupied and managed by a single government for almost 60 years, since 1967, is functionally a single state.
Even the proposed "two-state solution" from Oslo supposes a less-than-sovereign state in the West Bank and Gaza, with no military or border control.
Anyway, thanks for the in-depth response.
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Scott M. Stolzreplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by@Evan Prodromou I'll let people judge for themselves, but it comes down to this question:
Is Palestine being treated as an occupied territory, or is it being treated as equals with the same rights and privileges?
Your answer to that will tell you if they are de facto one state or two. -
Evan Prodromoureplied to Scott M. Stolz last edited by
@scott I disagree that this is a good rubric; I think there are sadly many examples in the world where a population are not treated with equal rights, and yet we consider them part of the same state.
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Mark Darbyshirereplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@evan Researching my answer for this poll, I'm sad but not surprised to see which countries have and haven't recognised the State of Palestine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine#/media/File:Palestine_recognition_only.svg
Case in point: my country supports a two-state solution but doesn't recognise Palestine as a country.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
So, a civil war is a war between parties within a single state. If you recognize both Israel and the State of Palestine, the War in Gaza is an international war. Or, perhaps, a war between a sovereign state, and some kind of perpetually occupied territory. But not within.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
But there is another pov, the so-called "one state reality", which says that after 65+ years of occupation of the West Bank and Gaza and East Jerusalem, with no end in sight and not even a promise of a truly sovereign Palestinian state, Israel/Palestine is a de facto single state. So, in this framing, the War in Gaza is a civil war between ethnic factions, or perhaps between a central government and a rebellious ethnic enclave.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
I find this framing appealing, even though I find the war unconscionable. It highlights the fact that Israel and Palestine might be inextricably entwined. And for some reason a fratricidal war at this level seems all the more tragic and self destructive.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by [email protected]
But the framing also means ignoring the existence of the State of Palestine, which has struggled so hard to come into the world.
And it also, surprisingly, cheapens the recognition of Israel within its borders. If the state's boundaries aren't where it says they are, but wherever the observer defines them, it undercuts that nation's right to define its own geography.
Just saying that the whole place is a hellish mush of Israel/Palestine denies either part the right to exist.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
So, I'm a qualified no. I think the civil war framing underlines the internality of the war, but it denies recognition to the two parts.