Jesus, the eagerness with which the Rust community jumps to answer my discourse not with any kind of good faith, but with personal attacks and put-downs and horrible ad-hominem nonsense is just...
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"Drew is a passionate Rust hater, nothing he says about it should be taken seriously. He's also the author of a low-level C-like language (without safety assurances of Rust), so it's likely whatever he's saying is motivated by pure spite and jealousy."
"some of [Drew]'s opinions are truly insufferable"
"Drew DeVault's name has managed to stick in my head as someone I just can't stand"
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This is the worst, even the stuff which isn't just outright personal attacks towards me are just dismissing the worst-faith versions of my arguments.
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Some of these quotes come from HN, some come from Reddit -- some from places where the Rust code of conduct is allegedly in force.
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The "spite and jealousy" comment: 138 points on Reddit
"Drew DeVault [...is] someone I just can't stand": 42 points
"yet another drew devault take I can ignore :P": 63 points
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@drewdevault
I haven't followed any of this and don't know how much in the Rust "community" I am, and I only very recently found out about your criticisms of Rust (reading them with interest). I am sorry to hear about attacks.I realize this is becoming a "not all ..." comment but I do wonder whether any large community with passionate members is immune from some people behaving this way? Defensiveness is normal human behavior.
But a real question: how can the Rust community do better?
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Drew DeVaultreplied to Martijn Faassen last edited by [email protected]
@faassen the positioning of Rust and its memory safety guarantees as a moral imperative for software engineering has been an incredibly toxic and destructive framing for the Rust community to operate under. It gives everyone carte blanche to be toxic to anyone who criticizes Rust on the basis that they have committed a moral failing by critiquing the language or heaven forbid not overlooking its flaws in the interest of its benefits for security, which is to say human morality.
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@faassen even if the community's party line is an obstinate disavowal of the Rust Evangelism Strike Force, it's still an attitude that seeps into the discourse unchecked.
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Martijn Faassenreplied to Drew DeVault last edited by
@drewdevault
So it shifts from "I think Rust's approach to memory safety in efficient code is a good idea" to "memory safety is a cause of problems in software and this tool can help" to "you are evil if you don't use this approach". Yeah, I can see that's a toxic pattern that is easy to slide into. I think other languages have less of that kind of pitfall; can't offhand think of anything. -
Martijn Faassenreplied to Drew DeVault last edited by
@drewdevault
Yes, it makes sense that it does; I can see how easy it is to make that mistake. I wonder what ideas could be spread to build up immunity to it. -
@drewdevault I remember years ago (ca. 2020) I spoke with a friend about stopping following you as I felt your communication style too aggressive.
Some months ago (I don’t remember if a year or two) I checked back and found your writing no longer felt so aggressive so I started reading you again.
FWIW I think you have improved a lot your communication and find your points of view quite caring about people and communities in addition to, as always, being technically interesting.
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@itorres thanks. I know I haven't always presented my best self and it's something I've been consciously working on. I appreciate that being acknowledged.
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@drewdevault Well I can be considered as a Rust fanboi, but I have nothing bad to say about your blog post.
I hate identitarism, I hate people generalising every little thing all the time.
From the Rust haters to the Rust gurus, it just pisses me so much that such toxicity is going around the communities.
Free software should be a united effort against GAFAM, not tribe wars
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Gokul Dasreplied to Drew DeVault last edited by [email protected]
@drewdevault I'm also one among the Rust community. I do the best I can, to popularize Rust in my community.
So, I'm saying this as a Rust fan - neglect the trolls and their unproductive opinion. They wouldn't be making so much noise if you weren't so well known. And there are plenty of Rust fans who are not so toxic and are silent right now.
I'm also saying that as someone who opposed your dislike of Rust in the past, but never felt that it was a good reason to engage in personal attacks.