I want to publicly announce a change in my thinking.

Rob Fahrni

@jwildeboer You do have a blog! This would be a great spot for that!

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

@fahrni Yep, it will land there too. In my experience starting a thread here helps me to gather comments, criticisms and replies that make the final blog post better

goetz 🚲

@jwildeboer
Have a look on the OSADL e.G.
@fahrni

CaveDave

@jwildeboer is it possible to have both? A non-profit which is a co-op?

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

@engravecavedave Sure.

Marty Fouts

@jwildeboer As a retired member of the NetBSD foundation I strongly suggest that you are being far too simplistic in comparing foundations to coops. There’s nothing inherently superior in the structure of either and either can be well used or equally abused.

As always, it comes down to the individual people involved.

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

@MartyFouts Thank you for jumping to conclusions before I was able to even start laying out my arguments.

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

A bit of background. I live in Germany and thus under EU regulations. In the EU we have the construct of an European Cooperative Society under Regulation 1435/2003. See https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/european-cooperative-society.html for an introduction and links to more details. We also have a coop (e.G., eingetragene Genossenschaft) under German laws and other EU members have their own rules on a cooperative.

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

Let's focus on the working definition from the EU [1]:

"A cooperative is an autonomous association of persons united to meet common economic, social, and cultural goals. They achieve their objectives through a jointly-owned and democratically-controlled enterprise."

[1] https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/sectors/proximity-and-social-economy/social-economy-eu/cooperatives_en

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

When it comes to foundations, the picture becomes very chaotic. Again, I live in Germany, where the common definition of a foundation is something like

"A foundation should not have commercial activities as its main purpose, but they are permitted if they serve the main purpose of the foundation. There is no minimum starting capital, although in practice at least €50,000 is considered necessary."

Foundation (nonprofit) - Wikipedia

(en.wikipedia.org)

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

With that out of the way, let me explain some uncomfortable axioms I use since many years.

#1: FOSS (Free and Open Source Software) needs stable funding. Making money with FOSS is not only perfectly fine, it is needed IMHO to keep FOSS alive and kicking. I don't want FOSS to be a hobby of the privileged few that can spare time and energy to work on it. I want it to be sustainable and a source of income for those that do the work.

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

#2: Thus we need a structure that allows for offering paid services and fostering an environment that attracts and rewards developers and users in transparent and accessible ways. A commercial vehicle that isn't at risk of being controlled and abused by egoism and heroism. A vehicle that guarantees free access to the results (source code) while allowing to make money on the services that lead to said code being made available.

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

#3 This, IMHO, means that he construct must work in a way that is close to how FOSS is created. A community approach, where users and developers define the way forward. In democratic ways but also with money involved as that is needed to fulfil axiom #1. This is why I think coops are the better choice.

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

Now to why I am not a foundation person anymore. From my direct and indirect experience, managing a foundation needs a very specific set of knowledge and experience that is not necessarily compatible with how FOSS communities work. It typically results in the foundation acting in ways that are good for foundations, but not really aligned with the needs of a FOSS community.

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

(I'll leave it here for the moment as it is late in the evening and I am tired and need some sleep. Please do discuss and add to the thread! I'll be back tomorrow

db0

@jwildeboer I really wanted your make Haidra into a cooperative instead of a non profit but unfortunately there's very little support in actually doing this and it actually costs more to do so where I am due to audit requirements. It sucks

tom jennings

@jwildeboer

There's the model Cygnus Support used. They'd port a package to some platform, eg gcc or whatever, the client pays Cygnus to fix bugs that affect them, those bugs go into the source for everyone's benefit but the client gets to set priority and other bennies.

Tofticles

@jwildeboer Background: I was part of the crew that made Coding Pirates in Denmark - a non-profit teaching kids IT, broadly.

Which structure you should choose very much depends on what you want to achieve imo - for us, creating a foundation created a disconnect between the foundation and the volunteers - since much of the work in the foundation was fund-raising.. to pay their own salary.

I think, I see where you are going, but very interested in hearing your thoughts on coops.

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

@tofticles Nailed it That is one of my biggest problems with foundations. The disconnect due to the structural demands.

icaria36 🎶

@jwildeboer Interesting. Still the question is how the money arrives to finance the development. There are workers cooperatives, where workers must provide a service and/or apply for grants, crowdfunding, donations... There are consumers cooperatives where members must arrive to a critical mass to make the activity sustainable. And many hybrids. You can have a cooperative essentially running the same not-for-profit business model than a foundation, internally organized as a cooperative.