USING THE F WORD (RE: TRUMP)

William Lindsey :toad:

@StrangeCulprits Yes, I like how Ta-Nehisi Coates keeps saying as a refrain all through his book Between the World and Me things like "the people who think they are white," or "the people who imagine they are white." When we all descend from an African Ur-mother and when many of us, I included, who grew up thinking of ourselves as exclusively white now find that our autosomal DNA contains markers both from "white" nations and from Africa.

William Lindsey :toad:

@SordidAmok Yes, I think many of us have seen the parallels for some time now, even when it's clear that the US at present and Nazi Germany are/were different societies, and we need to keep pointing to them.

Strange Culprits

@wdlindsy Indeed. The whole 'whiteness' argument falls apart in the face of DNA evidence, *and* shortly after racist elements obtain any measure of power: yesterday's allies (Italian, Irish, even Swedish people) become tomorrow's 'others' in the ridiculous ethnic purity derby

William Lindsey :toad:

@beingreal I agree. I think of these words that Etty Hillesum wrote not long before she herself was shipped off to her death in a Nazi murder camp — about how for many of her fellow Dutch citizens and for herself, it seemed hard to imagine what was taking place when life remained otherwise "ordinary."

tova

@wdlindsy ths issue is that argument has been used long before the threat got this bad. "we'll address your needs once the threat is less dire" but that day never comes. so everyone left of center keeps compromising and seeing little to no progress. this is why they're disillusioned and don't believe the promises of the center to wait

William Lindsey :toad:

@GreenFire @aaron.rupar I think I saw that clip, and if the one I'm thinking of is the one you're mentioning, you're right — a good clip showing tremendous disparity here.

William Lindsey :toad:

@Christo_459 Certainly fascism always ushers itself in by targeting the most vulnerable to demonstrate via performative cruelty what the strongman will do to everyone if we don't all stay in line.

William Lindsey :toad:

@rood I'm assuming you're responding to the implied question when Waldman says he can't think of what might persuade those folks to see who Trump really is — and your response is a good one. Works for me!

William Lindsey :toad:

@DoesntExist Yes, a big historical lesson of Nazi Germany has to be that nations which choose to do down that fascist path — with many citizens going along in silent complicity — often sets into motion the conditions for its own collapse and serious immiseration. I think of this a lot with Trump's appeal to many Americans — I think of how the bloodlust and joy at fantasizing about hurting our "enemies" is like a drug that makes us incredibly stupid, so we don't see it's ourselves we're hurting.

William Lindsey :toad:

@mickymorse I agree.

Philip Cardella

@wdlindsy @DoesntExist yep

William Lindsey :toad:

@beingreal "The problem 'the left' has is that it encompasses dozens of causes and millions of ideas."

That's right. The coalition of the left is a sprawling, big-tent coalition, and with such a coalition, it's hard to impose the lockstep conformity and obedience that obtain on the right. I also think that the left does itself no favor when it uses those same tactics to try to establish purist tests to rule some of us out and others in, on the basis of matters that shouldn't count so much.

William Lindsey :toad:

@darwinwoodka I think so, myself.

William Lindsey :toad:

@philip_cardella @DoesntExist I thought of this a lot with Brexit, since as an outsider and from a distance, I could see so clearly that the UK was shooting itself in the foot in many ways by enacting Brexit. I was also baffled at many friends who wanted to tell me this was a leftist blow against neoliberal tyranny, when it seemed clear to me that many people voting Brexit were moved by xenophobia and racism. If you get in bed with Farage and Bannon, you'll harm yourself by getting up with fleas

Philip Cardella

@wdlindsy @DoesntExist yep. Anytime you vote looking around to see who you are agreeing with can be instructive.

William Lindsey :toad:

@mouszi The issue to me is that there's a clear choice in the US between fascism and non-fascism.

I'm choosing the non-fascism side.

William Lindsey :toad:

@StrangeCulprits "The whole 'whiteness' argument falls apart in the face of DNA evidence": yes, absolutely. And that point seems so obvious that it's wrily amusing that so many white supremacists seem never to have thought of it. When DNA testing became a "thing" a few decades back, I read reports that so many people in online white supremacist communities were having DNA tests done and finding they had some African blood, that support groups had to be set up for them. Delicious irony.

William Lindsey :toad:

@philip_cardella @DoesntExist Yes. You just don't climb into bed with Trump, Bannon, and Farage and get to claim you're pursuing some noble leftist goals.

Runyan50

@wdlindsy Glad to see Harris addressing the issue with Black men though. The issue with Latinos mystifies me. They will be harrassed, arrested and deported regardless of their citizenship status if Project 2025 is allowed to be implemented. It will be an American Kristallnacht and they seem to be voting it onto themselves like a suicide pact.

Coldoug

@wdlindsy

Yes left politics has this self-defeating hierarchy. Each group dismissive of the other, so unity is extremely unlikely normally speaking.
It's only when a huge issue affects everyone equally badly that they can come together.
Let's be honest, if this election, or more pertinently the aftermath of it, isn't that huge issue then it's difficult to imagine what it would take.

The Monty Python movie Life Of Brian springs to mind, "Judean People's Front - splitters"