This is an interesting (pronounced like "frustrating") thread.

Hrefna (DHC)

Yeah, that is one of the core points that BlueSky discussed in "why not AP":

Because if you want interoperability the RDF-isms just. don't. work. To the degree they do work, it is extremely expensive to validate and work with.

It's a model for describing things, not a model to be _understood_ about the things you are describing. That requires separate, out-of-band communication.

@jenniferplusplus

silverpill

@jenniferplusplus I think when it comes to objects, duck typing is a good solution. Look at properties instead of types

@julian

Jenniferplusplus

@silverpill @julian it's not a strong argument for activitypub if it can't be effectively implemented in languages with compile time type checking

silverpill

@jenniferplusplus @julian My project is written in Rust and for me duck typing AP objects is not a problem. I don't have experience with other languages, but there shouldn't be any problems with them either

Sir Alecks Gates

@silverpill @julian @jenniferplusplus

Yes, it's quite easy to parse JSON in rust at compile time. There's even a package to generate a struct from a JSON schema.

Jenniferplusplus

@agates @julian @silverpill there's no schema to any of this

Sir Alecks Gates

@jenniferplusplus @julian @silverpill

So write one. Or go away

smallcircles (Humanity Now 🕊)

@hrefna @noah @jenniferplusplus

Think in a way this corresponds to trends we see everywhere.

I was pretty deep in XML working in print industry at the time, and most these standards made good sense. I got empowered with each new spec. But elsewhere vendors hyped SOA, came with super expensive "enterprise service buses" and XML a universal hammer. Until people said "Let's ditch it all".

Now we have this with cloud complexity, and e.g. people's personal websites having FAANG-like techstacks.

smallcircles (Humanity Now 🕊)

@jenniferplusplus @samsethi @julian

nilesh

@jenniferplusplus I also think #ActivityPub spec seems to be designed in early 2000s where users were supposed to just trust the servers. The only way I can truly own my identity is by running my own AP server on my own domain. Content is also referred to by its URLs, not by its content-hash which makes sure that I remain dependent on other servers/intermediaries.

#Bluesky at least recognizes some of these issues.

Nik | Klampfradler 🎸🚲

@nilesh @jenniferplusplus

Content being identified by IRIs (not URLs) is the backbone of the web. It could probably be other kinds of IRIs, yes, but don't drop the IRIs. And make sure they always stay dereferencable through HTTPS.

nilesh

@nik @jenniferplusplus What's this IRI you speak of?

Nik | Klampfradler 🎸🚲

@nilesh @jenniferplusplus

Basically, what you refer to as a URL (which, for the current state of the Fediverse, mostly is the same because virtually all IRIs of ActivityPub contents are URLs today).

But actually, ActivityPub content has an IRI, which does not have to be a URL, not even today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalized_Resource_Identifier

nilesh

@nik @jenniferplusplus IRI seems to be about just allowing extra characters, not content-addressing.

It would be easy enough to build content-addressability within existing URLs. For example:

`https://myblog.com/my-article-<multihash>.html`

Web browsers could have built this universally for all resources when defining the SubResource Integrity spec which is ensures that JS scripts a page downloads has not been tampered with. They chose `<script integrity="<hashalgorith>-<hashvalue>">` instead.

Nik | Klampfradler 🎸🚲

@nilesh @jenniferplusplus

The difference is the third letter – I vs. L.

An IRI (or URI), in contrast to a UR**L**, does **not** need to be a concrete HTTP address on the public web that can directly be loaded from a web server.

Dmitri | 🇺🇦

@jenniferplusplus re
> except activitypub and the w3c are now actively standing in the way, and sucking up all the oxygen for organizing that

So, I'm partly involved in activitypub and w3c stuff, so of course I'm very curious to hear more - what are some of the ways it's standing in the way? I mean, best as I can tell (being involved in it), the social web cg is just trying to provide some github repos, and some (monthly) calls for devs to coordinate, share pain points, start task forces..

Jenniferplusplus

@dmitri the problems with activitypub can't be solved with feps and eratta. There are fundamental issues that break implementation and prevent implementations from meaningfully interoperating. The kind of changes that would be required to fix that are explicitly out of bounds. But here's the w3c, starting up task forces that just serve to limit what's possible and distract from any other effort.

Dmitri | 🇺🇦

@jenniferplusplus Why distract, though? Can't we all work on all this stuff in parallel? For example, one of the task forces is the Threaded Discussions and Forums Task Force -- it's basically a bunch of implementers from forum and Reddit-like platforms trying to hammer out ways of interoperating. I don't disagree with you that ActivityPub has deep problems and needs work. But like..

Jenniferplusplus

@dmitri this doesn't feel like a serious question. The efforts that are blessed by the big standards org soak up all the attention, and they're explicitly prohibited from making the changes that lead to better outcomes for implenters. There's only so much attention people can give. There's only so much time they can give it. It's the same 2 dozen people who need to actually do the work, in coordination with each other, and it's impossible for them to do 2 things at once.

Dmitri | 🇺🇦

@jenniferplusplus I think 'efforts blessed by big standards org' implies a lot more gravitas than what actually happens. Again, taking the Forum TF as example - it was just a bunch of devs wanting to coordinate their implementations, they asked the CG to come do it in a task force, CG was delighted. Happened several times. Why is this 'soaking up attention'? Or, where else would you rather devs meet to collab? If there are better venues, I wanna be there too!