How Decentralized Is Bluesky Really?

Weatherwax

@cwebber
Great technical analysis that perfectly captures how architecture embodies values. You're right - Mastodon attracts digital idealists willing to sacrifice convenience for independence, while Bluesky draws tech pragmatists seeking ethical alternatives that still work smoothly.
But I think there's a missing piece in this freedom debate. The civil rights movement showed that real transformation often comes through collective commitment - not just independence from authority (Mastodon) or convenient individual choice (Bluesky).
We don't yet have protocols designed for communities seeking freedom through shared purpose rather than from or to something. The technical architecture for that kind of collective action would look very different from both current approaches (not sure what it is).
Thanks for the detailed analysis but I am still waiting for the protocols or ways to use the fact that computers see us as large groups, but, currently, only to aggregate us to sell us stuff. In reality, the computers could give great insight into the power of common identity between groups. No one’s using that.

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇬🇧)

@smallcircles @cwebber

how about nostr?
how about the pear runtime?
how about dat ecosystem?

the runtime works now.
a p2p messenger like keet works now.
nostr works now.

to me that is way more inspiring than the more academic work of klepmann.
it is also unlikely the next decentralized social media will come from academia

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇬🇧)

@smallcircles @cwebber

you shpuld try keet messenger.
it has thousands of peers in rooms.
you coupd look at autobase.

its more building material to make it easy to define and design your CRDTs and related mechanisms for your app

if you ever used nodejs, just use the pear runtime to get started.

`npx pear run pear://runtime`

and follow the tutorial

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇬🇧)

@smallcircles @cwebber

IETF and all big standard bodies are the old way of doing things. its the wrong place to look

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇬🇧)

@smallcircles @cwebber all centralized tech has that.

smallcircles (Humanity Now 🕊)

@serapath @cwebber

Agreed. And it is a huge advantage. I have a hunch how foss grassroots movement, might be way more effective too, and maybe one day to make a true fist to big tech, who knows. Right now we are nowhere even close. But we have most fascinating opportunities.

smallcircles (Humanity Now 🕊)

@serapath @cwebber

Thanks a lot for these resources. I will have a look!

smallcircles (Humanity Now 🕊)

@serapath @cwebber

I agree. Or rather something is missing.

Right now all the entities that are founded to serve the FOSS community are like arcane and distant temples and mystic shrines that we devs must make pilgrimage to and pray for the right support.

These temples need to come closer to people, come down to earth where they fly aloof, and built bridges too.

This bridgebuilding is part of 2 themes of social coding movement: #SustainableFOSS and #FSDL, Free Software Development lifecycle.

smallcircles (Humanity Now 🕊)

@serapath @cwebber

Klepmann is I feel aiming for internet-scale open standards adoption. With DAT, Solid, AS/AP, many other approaches, I see apps with app-specific ecosystems.

They are nowhere near the ambition level. Unsafe bets for technology decision makers (also FOSS ones).

I interacted with DAT for a bit years ago, giving feedback on lack of attention to non-technical matters and how I felt this put the project at extreme risk, with little chance for success. Same with Solid, AS/AP.

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇬🇧)

@smallcircles @cwebber

yeah.
affiliation.
viral marketing.
we need to do that p2p too.

sadly too littpe knowledge and attention seem to be channeled into that yet and i hope this changes in the future.

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇬🇧)

@smallcircles @cwebber

might be that something can be learned here when looking at bitcoin

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇬🇧)

@smallcircles @cwebber

@dat_ecosystem

The pear runtime is documented at https://docs.pears.com

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇬🇧)

@smallcircles @cwebber

i'd prefer to burn down all those temples. fuck them tbh. we need to make it work grassroots.

the most recent impactful movement that was successfully torpedoed by microsoft was nodejs and npm growth.

the reason they were successful was money.

The nodejs ecosystem grew up and figured its not sustainable for them.

Every used open source repo must be part of supply chains automatically and receive funds to make it sustainable. Without, any movement will fail again imho

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇬🇧)

@smallcircles @cwebber

theblast word hasnt been spoken.
dat still survives and everyone learns.

it is easy to make a standard body or to create a foundation for funding or marketing.

The centralized answers are well known, but they have the inherent risk of degenerating the novel solution back to the status quo they tried to escape from.

Finding new decentralized answers on the organizational layer of the stack as well is a lot of work - not just research into the unknown, but implementing

bhaugen

@serapath @smallcircles @cwebber
> Every used open source repo must be part of supply chains automatically and receive funds to make it sustainable.

Agreed. Better yet, or maybe this is part of what you meant, create the repo as part of an economic network that also provides for its own material and other needs.

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇬🇧)

@bhaugen @smallcircles @cwebber

I agree here as well.
Of course - i wanted to leave open how one might tackle the issue, but I do think that direction is the right direction.

The issue is probalby by starting it in this way, a lot more opinions are baked in, thus - what is the least opinionated way of approaching this?

That is a tough one

bhaugen

@serapath @smallcircles @cwebber

I can think of two ways to approach software that wants to be part of, and supported by, an economic network:
1. find an economic network and create some software that the network will like and use,
or,
2. create an economic network at (roughly) the same time as creating the software.

We're trying both approaches and we'll see which (or both) works for us.

𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇬🇧)

@bhaugen @smallcircles @cwebber

Of course, but what are all the modalities you might opt into. How exactly does the support look like?

That's more what i meant - of course, the choices (1.) and (2.) you mention seem obvious. If (1.) exists and you like it, join it. If not, you can only choose (2.) or waiting longer for somebody else to choose (2.)

Every such network was at some point started using option (2.) ...but what modalities would you choose when setting it up? what are the options?

bhaugen

@serapath
> Every such network was at some point started using option (2.) ...but what modalities would you choose when setting it up? what are the options?

Don't know yet. With luck, I may find out.

@smallcircles @cwebber

smallcircles (Humanity Now 🕊)

@serapath @cwebber

What I find interesting is the analogy to Big Industry.

How is it that big industry can run the most intricate global just-in-time supply lines between ultra-complex factory complexes and their suppliers, and is able to profitably produce consistent output to consumers en masse.

And a collab between 2 foss projects, totaling 4 people, is most likely to end in a catfight drama playing out online. And maybe, if lucky, forks.

How are we supposed to topple hypercapitalism?