i don't want to step on a friend's thread about estrogen and how people talk about it working miracles.

Delphine the hitanthrope

@forestine also, I appreciate the hat tip to what I think was probably my thread and I'm glad to hear that you're good with it. I would never want to talk about estrogen in a way that makes it seem like it's morally superior to testosterone. Especially given that so many people do that

deilann v -0.2.1. :neodog_hyper: :neodog_nom_verified:

@forestine

"you'll grow all the bad hair and lose all the good hair and i need you to know you don't have to in the same way unfair feminine beauty standards are pressed and why would anyone want to feel masc in those gross ways"

deilann v -0.2.1. :neodog_hyper: :neodog_nom_verified:

@forestine

this is followed shortly by saying "but then no one will want to sex you" because this conversation is still happening in the context of feminine oppression so it's natural to reduce us to our sex appeal

and then i go on grindr "dirty stinky fuzzy fat boy wants to sex you without kissing" and like it sounds like they need to work out their own issues wrt smell and hair not me

Li ~ Crystal System

@forestine if i hear another """testosterone makes you more aggressive""" i swear to god

star :beastie:

@forestine i don't really understand what people are trying to say about this stuff even when it's coming from transfems, either.. like it doesn't really make me feel better about my body either to act like before i went on E, i must've been angry, overpowered by sex drive, covered in sweat and hair, and that all those things are inherently bad instead of just like. things that can be kind of cool but respectfully maybe not for everyone

maybe it just widely makes people feel shitty in diverse ways to suggest that certain ways for bodies to be are uniquely undesirable and gross

star :beastie:

@forestine + i think this is related to this thing i find weird where people expect your transition goals to be like "become the hottest person of your desired gender that you can be" and not "feel good and normal about yourself"

like idk it doesn't occur to people that your transition goals might end with being old and happy. and part of that might be going bald or cellulite or what have you

-- multiply this by "women are inherently sexual" and people are weirded out in a particular way by transmascs transitioning

forestine

@star yup yup yup to all of this. the attractiveness/desirability part has always felt really uncomfy for me as a fat trans person

and to your first point – i think trans people owe it to each other to work through their kneejerk dysphoria responses to things which i think is a large component to infighting and just plain hurting each other. i have had to work on this too with things like not wanting breasts but seeing how happy others are to have them

Amber

@[email protected] @[email protected] I've had to work on this too. I do find that it can be a good experience to talk to someone who has your assigned gender and teach them how they can sort of "fit in". I'm transfeminine (well, i say transfeminine leaning nonbinary) but I still have conversations with my transmasc friends regarding masculinity and seeing them be happy feeling masculine does not take away from me being happy.

Amber

@[email protected] @[email protected] my transmasc friend and i were talking about swimsuits earlier and it was funny because our roles were reversed. i was talking about how men just wear swim trunks although there's swim shirts you wear if it's too hot outside and my friend was going on about how much more flexible women's clothing is. our conversation was specifically regarding dysphoria in swim wear and how it can disproportionately impact transmasculine leaning individuals (since binders for swimming are more expensive, how wearing a swim shirt isn't always standard). i wish more people would understand that just because something isn't enjoyable for them, that it can be enjoyable for others.

Amber

@[email protected] @[email protected] too hot outside, i meant when the UV index is high and you get burned easily. it sucks constantly reapplying sunscreen so sometimes yea. but like, the point was more about how we can share each other's experiences without being disrespectful

(From the) River (to the Sea)

@forestine I hope instead they get to hear from all the folks who are like "I'm hairy, hell yeah!", "my voice is deeper—awesome!"

I've seen folks affirmed by things like balding, and that hair that grows in inconvenient places. And in general it's nice to see people getting joy out of something that wasn't for me.

forestine

@cestfleuve i feel that too when i hear about transfem experiences. like that rules that you're so happy about this. and i think folks from both perspectives can understand the feeling of relief and joy

(From the) River (to the Sea)

@forestine we mostly want different things out of puberty, but there are two things we all want: to feel at home in our bodies, and to have the right to change them so we can.

Amber

@[email protected] @[email protected] and a community where we feel safe to share our experiences.

Morgan ⚧️

@forestine even transmascs on T love to hop on this trend, complaining about bottom growth and ass hair
The latter at least has been entirely white people from what I've seen
And I'm just like... Wait, you guys didn't have ass hair?
Any deviation from white femininity beauty ideals is seen as uglier bc of white supremacy but I actually fucking hate the white femininity box and Do Not Want It and that's a big part of why I wanted to take T in the first place???

Morgan ⚧️

@forestine a lot of white trans people, regardless of ASAB or gender, have not deconstructed white supremacist beauty standards at all, so then we have transfems thinking they're ugly unless they can perfectly replicate cis white womanhood, and trans ppl who were AFAB struggling to still find ourselves attractive once we leave it behind
It's really sad, and ends up harming TBIPOC even more