i don't want to step on a friend's thread about estrogen and how people talk about it working miracles.

forestine

i wish we could talk about t in a more positive way but we haven't even reached neutral at this point.

nova (they/them)

@[email protected] the talk around testosterone, especially from non-trans people but also from trans people, so often follows the “testosterone poisoning” rhetoric used against trans people!

i have even seen trans femmes use “testosterone poisoning” to describe their experience with t and it’s like… y’all know this rhetoric comes from transphobes who think trans mascs are betraying women right? that is not shit you should repeating even if you feel that’s your relationship with t! and trans mascs def also talk down about the effects of t

testosterone doesn’t make me angry or emotionally disconnected, it makes me more empathetic, it took away my constant desire to die making me able to actually interact with and engage with the world in a meaningful capacity, it makes it so i look in the mirror and like the person i see - even if they aren’t as pretty and feminine and dainty as i was on e. the only “testosterone poisoning” is the fucking poisoning of minds with “testosterone is bad” rhetoric.

forestine

@nova yeah i have a friend who used to talk about t as having poisoned her. i am so glad she talks about things differently now because i didn't have the words a the time to confront that.

i have briefly touched on how estrogen-based birth control made me feel (close to suicidal yes) but i never generalize it as bad for everyone or poison or anything like that. it's just a hormone which can be really amazing for a lot of people and not-amazing for others.

Delphine the hitanthrope

@forestine the demonization of T coming from many corners of the transfeminine and lesbian communities is toxic and has to stop

for my part, I'm always excited when I learn that a friend has started T, or is enjoying the effects of T, or is even pondering T. I think it's a beautiful thing that it can improve lives the way that it does, and it clearly does

forestine

friend: what if you grow back hair on testosterone?

me: i am not really concerned about that. it's fine if it happens.

friend: you know you can groom your hair any way you want. if you don't want back hair, or leg hair, chest hair, or tummy hair, you can remove it. you can trim your...

me: i don't want to remove hair. i have trauma around removing hair. i don't want to think about removing hair.

friend: - because it's okay to remove body hair no matter your gender. it's totally fine to remove hair and you know you can if you want to

me: i don't want to --

friend: because it's your personal preference and you can totally remove --

Delphine the hitanthrope

@forestine also, I appreciate the hat tip to what I think was probably my thread and I'm glad to hear that you're good with it. I would never want to talk about estrogen in a way that makes it seem like it's morally superior to testosterone. Especially given that so many people do that

deilann v -0.2.1. :neodog_hyper: :neodog_nom_verified:

@forestine

"you'll grow all the bad hair and lose all the good hair and i need you to know you don't have to in the same way unfair feminine beauty standards are pressed and why would anyone want to feel masc in those gross ways"

deilann v -0.2.1. :neodog_hyper: :neodog_nom_verified:

@forestine

this is followed shortly by saying "but then no one will want to sex you" because this conversation is still happening in the context of feminine oppression so it's natural to reduce us to our sex appeal

and then i go on grindr "dirty stinky fuzzy fat boy wants to sex you without kissing" and like it sounds like they need to work out their own issues wrt smell and hair not me

Li ~ Crystal System

@forestine if i hear another """testosterone makes you more aggressive""" i swear to god

star :beastie:

@forestine i don't really understand what people are trying to say about this stuff even when it's coming from transfems, either.. like it doesn't really make me feel better about my body either to act like before i went on E, i must've been angry, overpowered by sex drive, covered in sweat and hair, and that all those things are inherently bad instead of just like. things that can be kind of cool but respectfully maybe not for everyone

maybe it just widely makes people feel shitty in diverse ways to suggest that certain ways for bodies to be are uniquely undesirable and gross

star :beastie:

@forestine + i think this is related to this thing i find weird where people expect your transition goals to be like "become the hottest person of your desired gender that you can be" and not "feel good and normal about yourself"

like idk it doesn't occur to people that your transition goals might end with being old and happy. and part of that might be going bald or cellulite or what have you

-- multiply this by "women are inherently sexual" and people are weirded out in a particular way by transmascs transitioning

forestine

@star yup yup yup to all of this. the attractiveness/desirability part has always felt really uncomfy for me as a fat trans person

and to your first point – i think trans people owe it to each other to work through their kneejerk dysphoria responses to things which i think is a large component to infighting and just plain hurting each other. i have had to work on this too with things like not wanting breasts but seeing how happy others are to have them

Amber

@[email protected] @[email protected] I've had to work on this too. I do find that it can be a good experience to talk to someone who has your assigned gender and teach them how they can sort of "fit in". I'm transfeminine (well, i say transfeminine leaning nonbinary) but I still have conversations with my transmasc friends regarding masculinity and seeing them be happy feeling masculine does not take away from me being happy.

Amber

@[email protected] @[email protected] my transmasc friend and i were talking about swimsuits earlier and it was funny because our roles were reversed. i was talking about how men just wear swim trunks although there's swim shirts you wear if it's too hot outside and my friend was going on about how much more flexible women's clothing is. our conversation was specifically regarding dysphoria in swim wear and how it can disproportionately impact transmasculine leaning individuals (since binders for swimming are more expensive, how wearing a swim shirt isn't always standard). i wish more people would understand that just because something isn't enjoyable for them, that it can be enjoyable for others.

Amber

@[email protected] @[email protected] too hot outside, i meant when the UV index is high and you get burned easily. it sucks constantly reapplying sunscreen so sometimes yea. but like, the point was more about how we can share each other's experiences without being disrespectful

(From the) River (to the Sea)

@forestine I hope instead they get to hear from all the folks who are like "I'm hairy, hell yeah!", "my voice is deeper—awesome!"

I've seen folks affirmed by things like balding, and that hair that grows in inconvenient places. And in general it's nice to see people getting joy out of something that wasn't for me.

forestine

@cestfleuve i feel that too when i hear about transfem experiences. like that rules that you're so happy about this. and i think folks from both perspectives can understand the feeling of relief and joy

(From the) River (to the Sea)

@forestine we mostly want different things out of puberty, but there are two things we all want: to feel at home in our bodies, and to have the right to change them so we can.

Amber

@[email protected] @[email protected] and a community where we feel safe to share our experiences.

Morgan ⚧️

@forestine even transmascs on T love to hop on this trend, complaining about bottom growth and ass hair
The latter at least has been entirely white people from what I've seen
And I'm just like... Wait, you guys didn't have ass hair?
Any deviation from white femininity beauty ideals is seen as uglier bc of white supremacy but I actually fucking hate the white femininity box and Do Not Want It and that's a big part of why I wanted to take T in the first place???