Should there be a single, secular, multi-ethnic state in Israel/Palestine, with equal rights for all?
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Christopher Neugebauerreplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@evan
that depends on what you mean by "should" -
Evan Prodromoureplied to Christopher Neugebauer last edited by
@chrisjrn this seems to be a real sticking point for a lot of people. What do you think it means?
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@virtuous_sloth how so?
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@jeff @dpatriarche a secular, democratic unified state with equal rights for all was the stated objective of the PLO before the Oslo Accords.
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M. Grégoirereplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by [email protected]
@evan No. Most Israelis want to have a Jewish state, and that's fine so long as non-Jews are free and treated respectfully in Israel.
(I also have no objection to states that are officially Islamic, Christian or Buddhist, with a similar proviso for minorities.)
Of course this means that Palestinians ought not to be ruled by Israel. You can only have a liberal, democratic, religious state if there's a majority in favour of the official religion.
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@evan I doubt that Palestinians want a secular state either, though they're not really free to express their opinions.
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@mpjgregoire a democratic, secular, multi-ethnic state was the stated goal of the PLO before the Oslo Accords.
Not all Palestinians are Muslim; not all Muslims are Islamists.
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Jeremy Jupiter Jonesreplied to M. Grégoire last edited by
Palestine is a secular populace. Traditionally made up of Jews, Christians, Muslims and those who are secular. The land of Palestine is a holy land for Jews, Christians and Muslims. No single faith or people are superior to another. Neither the Christian or Muslim faiths existed 3,000 years ago.
Human rights are universal.
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M. Grégoirereplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by [email protected]
@evan What you write is true to be sure, but the PLO was the main Palestinian organisation 25 years ago. Hamas is explicitly Islamist; I think Fatah is officially secular. I don't know which better reflects the desires of the Palestinians. Indeed, maybe they're mostly opposed to both Hamas and Fatah.
For what it's worth, I've lived (briefly) in a Muslim majority society that's officially secular, and in one that's officially Islamic, though never in one using Sharia as the basis of its laws.
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M. Grégoirereplied to Jeremy Jupiter Jones last edited by
@jeremy_pm
Historically there were many Christian and some non-religous Palestinians, but that's less true today.According to Wikipedia, the percentage of the global Palestinian population that is Christian was 6.5% about 30 years ago. At present, of Palestinians living in the Holy Land, it's only 1 to 2% who are Christian.
There are other religious and ethnic groups with long-standing presence in the area of course. I once worked with a fellow who was Druze.
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@evan I’m very surprised by this result!
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@mattlehrer why so?
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
I am qualified no. If it were any other populations on the planet, I would probably be qualified yes. But the experience of Jewish people worldwide makes a Jewish state with defensible borders necessary.
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@evan And that overrides the rights of the indigenous people of Palestine?
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
I am also embarrassed and ashamed of this conclusion.
The countries of Europe and North America accept the premise that Jewish people are unsafe in the world without the presence of a Jewish state without any self-reflection on that damning judgment.
Making the US, Canada, and Europe safe for Jews is a challenge that does not undermine the legitimacy of Israel, but definitely improves our own.
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@thurisaz no.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
We should also take a much more active participation in a lasting peace in the region. Again, we bear significant responsibility for the need for a Jewish state and the inability of the Israel/Palestine conflict to be resolved as in other parts of the world.
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@evan So how do you see the rights of the colonized people being realized in a state that isn't "a single, secular, multi-ethnic state"?
The legitimacy of Israel isn't a question related to European anti-semitism. It's related to European settler-colonialism.
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John Mark :blobcatverified: ☑️replied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@evan No, a Jewish state is not necessary. I will not concede that point. That propaganda was developed by antisemitic Christians in the aftermath of the protestant reformation. This is why Zionism as a concept is inherently antisemitic.
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@thurisaz I don't know.
I think the Oslo concept for a two-state solution, with one sub-sovereign state, as untenable long term.
I'd prefer a binational state with guaranteed rights for the different nations enshrined in law, but I don't know if that's sufficient to give the Jewish people the protection they need.