Fascists love Star Wars. Even though the whole point of Star Wars is that fascists suck, and that the universe would be better without them.
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mekka okereke :verified:replied to Rob Ricci last edited by
American History X is a terrible film if its objective is to speak against racism. If I were a young white man and I watched American History X, and I believed its portrayals of Black folk? I'd feel more justified in my racism.
Black people murdered his dad, a hard working fireman. Then tried to steal his stuff. Then murdered his brother in school. But we're not supposed to be racist because it's wrong. We're not supposed to be strong in a cruel world. That messaging doesn't work.
1/N
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mekka okereke :verified:replied to mekka okereke :verified: last edited by
The reality is that the portrayals of Black people in that movie were trash.
The total number of times in US history that a Black student has shown up to a school with a gun and shot a white student, are astronomically low. That's not a thing that happens. It's a thing that racist 2A gun nuts pretend happens.
The portrayal of Black people as violent, stupid, or hapless, is a big problem.
I hated that movie, and was not surprised that it recruited more nazis.
2/2
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Billiglarperreplied to mekka okereke :verified: last edited by
Thanks for your perspective, even though I disagree.
The general point of contention seems to be how relatable the bad guy and his motivation should be. In the end that probably comes down to how much you trust the viewer.
It's tempting to present fascists as clowns or monsters. Which they quite often are. And as a tool to fight them, this ostracism is imho needed in society.
But it doesn't help with understanding fascism and it's draw on people.
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@Natanox @brunogirin @michael_w_busch @mekkaokereke
"more often than not do have sociopath tendencies"
So much so that I honestly believe it's the money what induces sociopathy. Or rather, the power that comes with that kind of money.
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mekka okereke :verified:replied to Billiglarper last edited by
Fascinating: my critique is 100% around the portrayal of Black people in the movie. I didn't even mention the portrayal of Edward Norton or any other white character, other than to say that his motivations were relatable given the false and disparaging depiction of Black folk in the movie. My take centered Black folk.
But you read it as how relatable Edward Norton's character should be, and if he should be relatable, or clownish or a monsters. Your take centered him.
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@omegaprobe @brunogirin @michael_w_busch @mekkaokereke It's an age old wisdom, isn't it? Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolute.
It requires very good education and constant reality checks to not be corrupted. And even then it's hard; a german MEP (Semsrott I think) once said that he will absolutely not do more than 2 terms as he already experiences the drag towards thinking of himself as somehow "better" or "higher" than others, which he is not. Yet there is no term limit.
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mekka okereke :verified:replied to mekka okereke :verified: last edited by
To agree or disagree with my take, you would need to say something about the depiction of Black people in the movie. Like either:
A) I think the depictions of Black people in the movie were fine
Or
B) I understand why a lot of Black people, especially those that have lived in Southern California and experienced LA racism first hand ️, had a huge problem with the movie.
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Natasha Nox 🇺🇦🇵🇸replied to Natasha Nox 🇺🇦🇵🇸 last edited by
@omegaprobe @brunogirin @michael_w_busch @mekkaokereke With money it's even harder I assume; given it's *the* universal tool of power suddenly everyone is your friend and confirms you in your believes just to get near enough so, just perhaps, some money and power reaches them.
Until we decouple our survival instinct and basic needs from money the corruption will continue. (This is by no means an endorsement of communism, lol)
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Billiglarperreplied to mekka okereke :verified: last edited by
I think I get why you are not ok with a movie where all Black characters are criminals, often violent ones. Yes, it's a racist cliché.
Personally, I think that's ok in the context of this movie. But that's easy to say for someone who's life is not negatively affected by this movie.
What I disagree with is your perception of the messaging. Imho it's not "Don't be strong in a cruel world, just be nice"
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What the movie imho does quite nicely is the construction and deconstruction of the "us vs them" worldview. It shows how the protagonists ends up with an "us vs them" worldview, how he gets dominated by it, how it fails him as there is not really an "us". How the protagonists overcomes it. And how the "us vs them" still ruins him as its an self-reinforcing dynamic.
It's sometimes a bit heavyhanded, but imho it's quite consistent.
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And yes, the movie takes artistic liberties to take the viewer on this ride and tell it in the length of a movie.
Most nazis don't experience violence by PoC. They like this "defender" view, but in reality aren't under attack.
And this "the violence gets back to you" is a nice story. In reality, the nazis don't have to worry about revenge attacks. (To me, this stands out more than the location of the revenge attack.)
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@billiglarper this is an incoherent justification for putting the dangerous, racist cliché of Black people as violent predators--one that literally kills Black people routinely--into a movie. You say it's worth painting Black people as a violent "them" in order to convey the message that "us vs them" doesn't work. But painting Black people as a violent "them" is a thing that happens every day in the USA*, causing not just police killings but also racist harassment, interpersonal violence, stress, and more. It's a "eating your cake and having it too" situation.
Are Black people real people whose lives matter? If so then this trade-off isn't worth it. If not then, well, we get your take. I can't see into your soul to know if this take reflects your true beliefs, so maybe the racism you've shown here is accidental, thoughtless. I dunno, though. You seem pretty committed.
*Edit: just noticed that Billiglarper is not USian @mekkaokereke @ricci
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@billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci can you explain why the racist cliché portrayal of Black people is "okay" to you? Please address explicitly how it impacts people's ongoing negative perception of Black people. And then talk about what elements of the movie you feel effectively offset that harm in order to make it "okay" in your book.
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Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:replied to Sally Strange last edited by
@SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci
What's really weird about this defense of the movie is, even though I haven't seen that movie in years, I seem to recall that there are several black characters in it who are not criminals. Like the teacher who tells the younger brother to write the paper to try and redirect him, or the guy the older brother meets in prison, or the Jewish teacher or the Asian store. Also, he is attacked by White supremacists in prison, after which The Black gang leaves him alone, which I think is trying to make a point too.I think Mekka's point has a very obvious reality to it here: a movie that portrays black characters as predominantly criminal, rather than the main characters as retaliating against a predominantly innocent demographic for the behaviors of individuals, doesn't make a strong argument against racism itself. My response would be to ask Mekka, how do you think it could have done this better?
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Lux :flag_genderfluid:replied to Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon: last edited by
@Raccoon @SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci are you ready to hear : don't do it? Ever?
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@billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci for the record, Bill declined to answer my question publicly. I personally found the private explanation lacking.
I respect the choice to shy away from the public conversation. These are difficult topics, and most people aren't really equipped to navigate them. I do think it's messed up that people feel comfortable jumping in and making excuses for Black stereotypes but then not take responsibility for helping to perpetuate a world that keeps leaning on them.
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Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon:replied to Lux :flag_genderfluid: last edited by
@orange_lux @SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci
...I'm confused... do you mean "don't make a movie about racism"? I'm wondering if maybe my post wasn't clear... -
Lux :flag_genderfluid:replied to Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon: last edited by
@Raccoon @SallyStrange @billiglarper @mekkaokereke @ricci not "don't make a movie about racism", but more like "if you want to portray your main character as a far-right activist, don't do it".
Even if the scenario was better handled like you suggested, the main issue remains : real-world far-right activists will praise the looks of the movie before its message.
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mekka okereke :verified:replied to Raccoon at TechHub :mastodon: last edited by
@Raccoon @[email protected] @billiglarper @ricci
Great question.
Many ways.
If they wanted to make a movie that showed the futility of white supremacist violence, without reinforcing the most harmful, untrue, racist fever dream stereotypes about Black people, with a sympathetic protagonist, and Hollywood action movie glorification of horrific violence, "Shot Caller," is a much better movie.
Shot caller trailer:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QQxjyRr9k2EThere are barely any Black people in this movie.
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mekka okereke :verified:replied to mekka okereke :verified: last edited by
Or, they could have kept the same movie, and made it clear that the protagonists' perception of persecution and danger from Black people, is imaginary.
Eg, Black kids don't often show up to schools in the US and shoot a bunch of white kids. But white kids do show up to schools and shoot a bunch of Black kids.
Gang members in the US don't often kill firefighters, but this is a real reason that some Black folk don't like firefighters.