"Tonight, on the 104th anniversary of the ratification of the Nineteenth Amendment, delegates are gathered in Chicago, Illinois, for the Democratic National Convention, where they will celebrate Harris’s nomination for the presidency.
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William Lindsey :toad:replied to Breathe on last edited by
@Breathe You're saying those words to Peter Beinart, right?
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lolonursereplied to William Lindsey :toad: on last edited by
@wdlindsy
I think this situation is trickier than this. I totally wish we could have cut off support of Netanyahu's vicious war. But there's so much more to it than meets the eye. And Biden is NOT the one to blame! But apparently Netanyahu is saying he is open to discussing a cease fire. I wonder if Harris is making him nervous. -
William Lindsey :toad:replied to lolonurse on last edited by
@lolonurse I understand that there are very different perspectives on what's a complex situation. Once the term "genocide" is introduced and, as Peter Beinart says, is widely agreed to be appropriate, I think we move to a whole new moral level in the discussion, however. I value Beinart's commentary, since it's so morally grounded and compelling, and informed by his own strong Jewish faith, all of which could yield a very different assessment of what Israel is doing.
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M.S. Bellows, Jr.replied to William Lindsey :toad: on last edited by
@wdlindsy @lolonurse Also, I see very few people acknowledging that events in Gaza could lead to region-wide conflict, especially if it ran becomes more aggressive. The goal is to help the people in Gaza without creating an opening for Iran and its ally, Russia, to expand their influence in a way that drags multiple countries into war and possibly could lead to Israeli use of a nuke. That requires sending messages (through words and actions) that the US condemns what Israel is doing but still has Israel's back in a larger sense.
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William Lindsey :toad:replied to M.S. Bellows last edited by
@msbellows @lolonurse I'd say that many people both in the US and outside it increasingly think that in having Israel's back, the US is really contributing to a situation that can radically destabilize the Middle East, particularly as long as Netanyahu remains in power. For many of us, what we appear to be doing is feeding a monster.
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lolonursereplied to William Lindsey :toad: last edited by
@wdlindsy
My sense/understanding about this whole horror story has been an evolution for me. I have friends & relatives in Israel, so whenever there's a "thing", I get scared. Also, I have family I never got to meet, because they were murdered by Hitler, so the word genocide is pretty real to me, being a first-generation German Jew.
I have very strong feelings about the overall stupidity of people who'd rather kill than talk - especially when they have the same roots. -
M.S. Bellows, Jr.replied to William Lindsey :toad: last edited by
@wdlindsy @lolonurse I don't disagree! Biden's legacy will be marred by two incredibly influential failures, in which he was blinded by his belief that he was in the right and so failed to heed contrary views: Anita Hill and Gaza.
What I am saying that it's also unreasonable to ask that he (or Harris) *publicly* be seen as withdrawing substantial military support from Israel, because so much of diplomacy is conducted via unspoken signaling: it's normal in diplomacy to read small actions and statements as having larger meanings, and so large actions (like withdrawing military aid from an ally surrounded by neighbors that hate it) could be misinterpreted as meaning, "they're no longer in our favor, and we won't defend them if you attack them." (Iran's invasion of Kuwait was the result of exactly such a misconstrued interpretation.)
Harris almost certainly will apply substantial private pressure on Israel, take public steps to alleviate the human suffering, and continue Biden's pursuit of a 2-state solution – but she also will still pay lip service to remaining Israel's ally and defending its so-called democracy, not out of actual allegiance to Israel or disregard for Palestinians but from awareness of regional politics. And some folks who don't understand the bigger picture will scream that she's still supporting racism and genocide.
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William Lindsey :toad:replied to M.S. Bellows last edited by
@msbellows @lolonurse Thanks for explaining your point more thoroughly. It's thoughtful, and I generally agree. I also think that at some point, Kamala Harris has to make her position about these matters clear, and I'd hope that we'll see at least some daylight between her position and the course Biden has followed up to now.
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William Lindsey :toad:replied to lolonurse last edited by
@lolonurse I can understand how a personal connection would give anyone a very personal optic on what seem to be abstract issues to a lot of us from a distance — and I definitely respect that. As someone looking on at a distance, I have to say that one of my guiding moral compasses has been the witness and insight of many people of strong Jewish faith, who are willing to stand up and speak out against oppression.
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Charles Heroldreplied to William Lindsey :toad: last edited by
@wdlindsy @msbellows @lolonurse She may be hoping she can avoid making that position clear until after the election. Any definite position is more likely to lose her votes from one side than win her votes from the other. And Gaza is not, according to polls, at the top of most voters' concerns, so I don't see much upside in taking a strong position until she has the power to change our policy.
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lolonursereplied to William Lindsey :toad: last edited by
@wdlindsy @msbellows
I think about this a lot. She is in a delicate position. She is still vice president, under & supporting the president.
If her ideas & plans are different, it could be not just precarious but dangerous to say so, because Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Jordan, Egypt, & TFG! - all listening & gauging how to take advantage of any rift. This is literally a tightrope walk. I do not fault her for being circumspect (especially w/current 'peace' talks under way.) -
lolonursereplied to William Lindsey :toad: last edited by
@wdlindsy
Many of us are secular Jews, but our Judaism is thousands of years of history, culture, traditions, laws & morés, & stories - the foundations for 2 younger offshoots! We are at least 2,000 years older than Christianity, & Jesus was Jewish. We are at least 2,400 years older than Islam, & Mohammed was a Hanif, directly descended from Abraham. So their roots are our roots. We're siblings, or at least cousins. So these fights are familial, & someone needs to point that out! -
William Lindsey :toad:replied to lolonurse last edited by
@lolonurse I think most of engage our religious traditions in diverse ways, and it makes no sense — and is not fair — to separate those drawing on religious heritages into the "observant" or "practicing" and the rest. In both cases, the reliigious tradition informs, shapes, molds moral perspectives. And I continue to think that this role of religion deserves respect among those on the left who seem to feel entitled to insult and stereotype people of faith who stand alongside them.
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William Lindsey :toad:replied to lolonurse last edited by
@lolonurse @msbellows It's very definitely a tightrope walk, and that tightrope has been set in place by white Christian nationalists in the US whose very eccentric and peculiar reading of the bible leads them to see Israel in strange apocalyptic ways. The big irony is, though those folks are some of the most antisemitic imaginable, a portion of the US Jewish community has chosen to side with them because no matter what Israel does, they approve — and they hate the Islamic peoples.
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William Lindsey :toad:replied to Charles Herold last edited by
@cherold @msbellows @lolonurse Yes, I suspect that she's being strategic in avoiding making strong direct statements now, which would lock her into positions she may want to alter as president, and also be used by the media to hound her. It's not an easy place to be in. And I am willing to give her room for that strategic positioning, with Donald Trump as the alternative. Anyone who imagines he'll be "better" on Gaza is not living in the real world.
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lolonursereplied to William Lindsey :toad: last edited by
@wdlindsy
Funny that you happened to say this now, just as I was noticing, all during the DNC last night, that almost every single speaker, in some form or another, thanked God, or said may God be with us, or God bless America, etc. It made me think the GOP must be furious that most Democrats are people of faith, in many forms. -
lolonursereplied to William Lindsey :toad: last edited by
@wdlindsy @msbellows
Yes, there is definitely a very troubling segment of American Jewry who are just as crazed as the MAGAts and White Nationalists, and the rest of the very disturbed extremists. I just turned 74, and grew up with very liberal Egyptian and Iranian Jewish friends & neighbors. And various Muslims. It would never have occurred to me that there was any "difference", except holidays. -
lolonursereplied to William Lindsey :toad: last edited by
@wdlindsy @cherold @msbellows
I don't believe he is capable of thinking in diplomatic, global or "political" terms. Everything revolves around him, his wants & needs, and who likes/"respects" him. He's a tyrannical toddler. He has always been so, although in NY, he wasn't tolerated very much. I LOVE how Walz captured him as a very small man. -
William Lindsey :toad:replied to lolonurse last edited by
@lolonurse @msbellows My Jewish neighbors and friends fit your experience of Judaism, and I learn so much from them. I should also add — above and beyond discussions of Judaism, but touching on the role of religion and religious people in public discourse — I think the testimony of people who have distanced themselves from religious traditions and God-talk for very good reasons is very valuable, too, and deserves a strong place in public discourse.
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William Lindsey :toad:replied to lolonurse last edited by
@lolonurse Yes, I think it's really important for signals to be given to Republicans that they do not own God, the bible, religion, people of faith — that there are different ways to appropriate religious symbols than the way they want to impose on all of us, and that many Democrats stand in those "different ways." This is very important for the African-American community, who deserve so much credit for fighting for American democracy.