The thing I love about this post and all its replies, is the stark difference in replies in answer to Brent's very reasonable question.

Christian Kent

@juergen_hubert @larsivi @mekkaokereke Than *which* Mastodon? Some of the servers? The entire federation? I don’t really understand the point you’re making — and without clarification it might imply something else.

Oblomov

@Eris @mekkaokereke oh yes the ideas are nice, but the problem is, nice ideas have the tendency of not scaling that nicely when decentralization is involved. Consider for example the starter lists idea: where does the server fetch them from to present them to the user? Who manages addition and removal of entries from the list? How do changes to it propagate?
We already have something like that for the “reference blocklist”, and even that essentially relies on a centralized service (Oliphant) 1/2

Oblomov

@Eris @mekkaokereke
and that's before even getting into how much of a social problem these are *before* being technical problems. And they are a social problem because of federation (simplifying: “who federates with whom”, which maps also to “who takes recommendation from whom”), but also because of the social interactions involved in the software development itself (there has been recent discussions you probably have come across about how certain thought-out PRs are being disregarded).

2/2

Eris Renée

@oblomov @mekkaokereke Starter lists can be user generated just like they are there. You follow them from your server, same way we follow users currently, and that causes you to automatically follow everyone on the list at that moment.

Changes could federate via activitypub. Some protections should be in place to not allow users to add folks with protected accounts or discovery off, and adding someone to a list could send an approval request to them on the server they live on. Bluesky doesn’t have this, but probably should.

Going the extra mile for usability, once someone on your server follows a list, maybe a list of popular lists that federate with your server could be shown somewhere during onboarding. Maybe automatically, or approved by server admins/moderators, depending on the server’s vibe. Otherwise they can be manually shared like they are on bsky.

Just an idea on how it could work, but i totally think it could work. It’d be a lot of effort, and idk if the mastodon project has the resources to think about this right now, but yeah.

Oblomov

@Eris @mekkaokereke
so one way this could be implemented is that in addition to my “private” lists that I use to manage my follows, I could have public lists, and anyone browsing my profile could see them and one-click add its members to their follows, or block them (for a block list)? (This doesn't solve the problem of users having to find *me* in the first place, but it would help past that point.)

I guess changes to these lists could come through federation similar to follow requests.

Oblomov

@Eris @mekkaokereke (For the changes, I mean something like: a user can ask to be added to a public list in a similar way to how they can ask to follow someone with a locked profile, and similar they could ask to be removed from a list; some of these action could be automatic, but with care: for example, you can remove yourself from a starter list, but not from a public block list)

Eris Renée

@oblomov yeah that’s basically all bluesky’s lists are, from what i can tell. i think for public shareable lists, it needs to be opt-in not opt-out. Too easy to be used for harassment otherwise.

block lists work similarly. as do labels. i believe people can request to be taken off, but that’s up to whoever manages the list.

moderation services would be quite a bit more complicated, idk about that. one instinctual thought i had was to be able to follow another server’s moderation decisions on an account level, but thinking about it for an extra few seconds, that’d get real hairy real quick. but maybe we could take some ideas there? i don’t know.

Jürgen Hubert

@ckent @larsivi @mekkaokereke Mastodon in its entirety.

It's heavily populated by Europeans and North Americans, and _white_ Europeans and North Americans at that. It's hard to find a lot of people outside of that bubble.

Anders Norén

@mekkaokereke There is also all these conservative people who think that the present state of Mastodon is a feature and that any changes will lead to deterioration (a.k.a. more users).

AJ Sadauskas

@mekkaokereke Sadly, I get the impression that the window of opportunity for Mastodon to be the great Twitter replacement might have closed.

It's just so quiet in here right now, especially compared with BlueSky.

That might change over time?

I think what a lot of people wanted was just a better moderated Twitter. And that's something Mastodon ultimately failed to deliver, particularly with the default apps.

I think perhaps it's time to focus on Mastodon better at being its own thing. A place for slower, more thoughtful, longer form conversations.

And to keep chipping away at the moderation and other issues that have held it back.

I certainly think there's merit in better federation between the Fedi and BlueSky.

But these are just a few disjointed thoughts...

G. Gibson

@ajsadauskas @mekkaokereke I have tried to get lefty media guys and political parties interested in Mastodon -- and they seem to not get it. Wondering what else to do.

Emelia 👸🏻

@violanders @mekkaokereke yeah, that's one that's pervasive and shouldn't be the norm — if you want small you probably want to be on an island network, not a public one

Anders Norén

@thisismissem @mekkaokereke I understand that Mastodon, and Fedi in general, has issues when it comes to moderation but "security by obscurity" is, as usual, not the correct answer.

AJ Sadauskas

@mistergibson @mekkaokereke There was a whole wave of Australian journalists and prominent #auspol Twitter users who moved to Mastodon when Elon first bought the bird app.

Some moved back to X, others moved on to Threads and BlueSky.

Many who tried Masto for a time ended up on BlueSky.

I think there's a few reasons why that happened.

The onboarding journey and the default app, especially two years ago but still today, just weren't great.

There have also been issues with moderation and harassment.

There's issues, like quotes, that were supported by other Fedi apps but not Mastodon.

With credit to the Mastodon developers, some of those issues have been fixed, just nig nearly fast enough.

I definitely think there's value in Mastodon and the Fediverse more broadly.

But I'm now a lot less sure that role will be "the new Twitter".

Bad Gardener

@thisismissem @mekkaokereke

Although, when people start seeing budgets of $30+ million, they often get more interested in the money than the principles.

I find it astonishing, as somebody who can barely use 5% of the functions on my doohickey gadgets, how Mastodon is held together by goodwill and string. The trade off from that is that we must accept what people can afford to do for us with their time and efforts.

Laurens Hof

@mekkaokereke I've seen roughly a different gazillion tech explanations of why people go to Bluesky, and zero explanations that account for the fact that on Bluesky you have AOC talking about Baja Blast Chicken

Emelia 👸🏻

@violanders @mekkaokereke correct, hence those wanting a small network probably want to be on an island network instead of a public free for all.

mekka okereke :verified:

@Badgardener @thisismissem

Nope.

I refuse to accept that.

We will find a way to pay for Mastodon development. We should also be able to prioritize safety and user experience features.

An open source app I highlight is Inkscape. Yes, it's an open source app. But they *obsess* about user experience. Read the release notes for Inkscape 1.3. seriously. Read it.

Release notes/1.3 - Inkscape Wiki

(wiki.inkscape.org)

Fight giants. Even BlueSky is punching up at Twitter. $30MM vs $50B+. More than 2 orders of magnitude.

Emelia 👸🏻

@mekkaokereke @Badgardener we should refuse to accept that.

But the reality right now is projects are underfunded. I've heard of at least a few that may need to shutdown within the next 6-12 months unless they can attract funding.

For 5 engineers in Europe, you're looking at a burn rate of at least €30,000 a month (that's €60-72k salaries), then there's operating expenses, taxes, server/infrastructure costs on top.

Bad Gardener

@mekkaokereke @thisismissem

Refuse to accept what? That we should be grateful to those currently keeping Mastodon afloat?

If you have a way to prioritise and shortcut improvements to safety and onboarding, that's wonderful. Truly. Get going, and I'm in awe of your talents.

But for the vast majority of users, there are two gripes - what Mastodon *isn't* providing, and the ridiculous amount of gatekeeping within the system. Both are off-putting. For the former, most of us can't fix that.