Was trawling through the Superfund-worth trace from another super high profile Next.js site, and realised that the best way to describe contemporary frontend is inconsiderate.

Prem Kumar Aparanji 👶🤖🐘

@slightlyoff any good examples that aren't js first but are still feature rich? To help differentiate via show and tell instead of me fumbling to convey the point adequately?

Ben Judson

@slightlyoff can you share examples of who is doing it better?

Alex Russell

@shiftingedges Try a site like squoosh.app on a low-end device. Still incredibly smooth, uses the absolute peak of what the platform can do (WASM, workers, etc.), but does it all *considerately*.

Alex Russell

@prem_k Define "feature rich". I mean, all of gov.uk works without JS to a first approximation, including things like filing for tax disc renewal.

Alex Russell

@prem_k Or you can look at HTML-first tools like FixMyStreet, which even has progressively-enhanced maps:

Viewing a location

FixMyStreet (www.fixmystreet.com)

Prem Kumar Aparanji 👶🤖🐘

@slightlyoff this is awesome! Thanks a ton!

UK gov websites aren't relatable to many developers not living there, though I do understand why gov websites need to be so in the first place.

Is there a way to evaluate how do Indian gov.in/nic.in websites fare?

Simon Willison

@prem_k @slightlyoff FixMyStreet isn't by the UK government directly, it's a mySociety project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MySociety

Marco Rogers

@slightlyoff I don't know man. I mean I've been posting on here about devs taking responsibility. What I'm told is that if their work sucks, it can only because they're being forced to do whatever some manager tells them to do.

Alex Russell

@polotek I am a rock! I am an iiiiiisland!

Alex Russell

@polotek Never have so many achieved so little with so much influence.

Mx. Aria Stewart

@polotek @slightlyoff It's almost like we built a sick system. https://issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems.html

Jenniferplusplus

@aredridel @polotek @slightlyoff that is going to be a really useful term

jasonreturns

@slightlyoff kind of off topic but what do you think of the new Copilot website/webapp? I don't even have access to a low end device to see if it's a good experience or not https://copilot.microsoft.com/

Florens Verschelde

@polotek @slightlyoff I've definitely had the experience of caring about perf while managers and clients didn't. But also other developers didn't either. No idea what influences what.

Florens Verschelde

@[email protected] @slightlyoff In agency work, I was ignored, told off or reprimanded for caring about perf many times. I got a positive reaction only once (a client has just panicked about their mediocre CWV numbers, worrying about SEO impact).

In aggregate, the incentives were to not care (and avoid being reprimanded for "spending time on the wrong thing / low priority work").

So I get it when devs with similar experiences bristle at being called uncaring.

Alex Russell

@fvsch Culture is diffuse but powerful. It can be the case that individual developers face the pressures you're outlining while it is *other* developers that popularised and spread the very patterns that make it so hard to do well and the shitty value (excuse?) systems that make standing up for the user "not part of the job".

Alex Russell

@jasonreturns Every single chatbot from every company I've traced are...disappointing. Architecturally, they all assume components for all message response types must be loaded up front, and when that inevitably ends in tears, it's a fire drill to split imports...which is usually unsatisfactory in terms of result.

None that I've seen in the wild do HTML streaming correctly.

Thinking about problems through the lens of `npm i -s` makes us all dumber.

Florens Verschelde

@slightlyoff True. And I’ve definitely seen sentiment like “everyone has high speed internet” and “everyone has a fast smartphone” from many coworkers.

Alex Russell

@fvsch It's demoralising! Or at least, it can start that way. We may not win each battle, but we can choose if we want to try to right the culture or let it rot.

I've made my choice, but I respect folks who feel overwhelmed by the scale of the task.

Marco Rogers

@slightlyoff @fvsch if people have to work at a company with horrible incentives, that’s unfortunate. But I think those people have to sit out this conversation. I don’t think it makes sense to feel attacked if your circumstances mean that you can’t make meaningful choices about your work. We’re not talking about you. But it also means caring in your heart doesn’t actually amount to much. You’re still causing damage. So maybe work on changing your circumstances.