For the last several months I've been working on making a federated app.
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@evan I don't disagree that you can make all kinds of interesting patterns on top of AP. AP is extremely flexible, but also requires unofficial draft extensions like LOLA to satisfy my use-case.
To make ActivityPub feasibly accomplish my goals would take more work than making my own simple solution.
And in the end I would have an increasingly complicated half-compatible version of ActivityPub, instead of a simpler protocol that does exactly what I need.
🧵
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@evan As far as the risks as a product designer, there is a risk in every direction, but the simplest solution is usually the easiest to change and adapt to future needs / obstacles.
As far as wasting others' time, it can't waste the time of anybody who doesn't choose to invest their own time in it.
Every person's time is their own to invest. If Leaf isn't worth it that's up to them.
I'm simply betting my own time and effort that this will be the most effective road for me to build my app.
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@evan @zicklag Evan, I love you, but telling someone that their effort or focus of interest is a waste of time, and that they should build on your thing instead, is not exactly a good strategy on getting those people to build on your thing.
It’s not a good look.
Whether or not this person’s efforts go somewhere is besides the point. They cared enough to think about what they perceived to be problems, and actually built something. That exploration in and of itself is invaluable, and if they keep at it, it’s bound to bear fruit in a number of different ways. Maybe some of their good insights might even translate to ActivityPub work.
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@evan @zicklag I'd be more inclined to agree with you if it were clear that AP is improving in the most important ways. From my vantage point it has ossified quite a bit. Critical features aren't even being implemented by the major apps, let alone standardized. AP is a solid foundation but it needs to continue to evolve.
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@zicklag Protocols aren't products; they require collaboration with other implementers. You have a better chance of that if you build on top of AP.
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@evan @zicklag Those are awesome features, but how much value do they have if users don't have the mobility to leave Mastodon for a provider that implements them? The fact that identity portability isn't seen as the most important issue by far gives me pause when considering building on AP. And I say this as someone who is actively developing AP software. I'm just hedging my bets by supporting other protocols as well (primarily IndieWeb atm).
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@evan I actually am making a product called Weird: https://weird.one.
I need others to be able to run federated Weird instances. That requires a standardized protocol between those instances.
But the protocol is secondary. My priority is the product.
If the protocol turns out useful elsewhere, and other people want to use it and collaborate, that's a great bonus. 🥳
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@zicklag That's an implementation problem; the counts are available from the remote server.
I highly recommend reading my upcoming book "ActivityPub: Programming for Social Web" from O'Reilly Media, coming out later this month. You can read a free pre-release version here:
https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/activitypub/9781098162733/
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@zicklag Well, I hope you figure out the right thing to do eventually. ActivityPub is an open standard and you can always come back and use it.
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Josh Shaked ⁂replied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@evan when you say the counts are available from the "remote server," do you mean the server on which the original post is located?
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Josh Shaked ⁂ last edited by
@joshshaked yes
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@joshshaked the `replies` collection holds all the replies to the post, except those that weren't sent to the OP. `Collection` type objects have a `totalItems` property.
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It's not *my* thing! It's the open social networking standard, developed and recommended by a recognized standards organization, with ~100 implementations and ~30,000 installed servers.
There's nothing wrong with building a homegrown protocol and a software server to use it.
@zicklag have fun with weird.one.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@deadsuperhero @zicklag I have really strong feelings about people having access to distributed social networks. You can read my blog post on the subject here:
https://evanp.me/2023/10/06/activitypub-the-socialcg-and-the-social-web/
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@deadsuperhero @zicklag You may also have seen my thread on the topic here:
Evan Prodromou (@[email protected])
'Prodromou, however, has strong words for any organization looking to enter social media with a new decentralized social media protocol. “I’m not interested in any protocol besides ActivityPub,” he says. “Anyone working on brand new protocols in 2023 should stop immediately. They are going to do more harm than good."' This may be surprising for people who have known me for a long time. I've generally been supportive of trying new protocols and tools.
Prodromou.pub (prodromou.pub)
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@deadsuperhero @zicklag I know you don't share these opinions, Sean. I think you want a successful, distributed social network like I do, but we disagree on the role that protocol proliferation can play. I'm sorry for that, but I think we're still allies and friends.
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@evan @zicklag no, it’s totally okay that we differ. It doesn’t change my opinion about you as a person.
I just feel that having other protocols helps drive innovation, especially as different efforts focus on particular problem areas. There’s a handful of really good ideas in Bluesky, Nostr, and even Farcaster that could only have ever emerged by focusing on the domain areas and applications of each protocol.
My biggest concern is that monoculture could lead to stagnation or a sort of developmental intractability. My belief is that having these other things that are doing things differently can inspire us on ways to improve ActivityPub in the future. It forces us to be competitive, and also be honest in evaluating what things we could be doing better.
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@evan @zicklag I didn’t mean to say that it belonged to you, it was a simple statement on advocacy and ingroup-outgroup relations. It’s like saying “my” or “your” in regards to what camp one happens to be in.
When it comes to advocating towards someone that isn’t part of your ingroup, putting down the efforts of the outgroup likely has the opposite effect of what was intended.