It's 2024, the web platform now includes a full component system, CSS we only dreamed of 10 years ago, deferred module loading is now a platform feature, and a fuller JS standard library than it ever has...even in Safari.
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@polotek @slightlyoff we're cool nw
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@polotek @slightlyoff literally just now Alex was telling me about meeting people where they are and that's... probably the best step indeed even when it's just reeeeally frustrating after you've done some of the work yourself but I guess it's easy sometimes to lose empathy for how hard it was to pull myself out of the hole of those defaults, too /shrug (as someone who also used to assume React was a good enough default)
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@zkat @slightlyoff Alex has been through this journey and is just patiently (and sometimes not so patiently) waiting on the rest of us to catch up.
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@zkat @slightlyoff what's cool about this is you can also see the chart where the bundle size slowly creeps up with every version. And by cool I mean horrible.
https://bundlephobia.com/package/angul[email protected] -
Alex Russellreplied to Louis Ingenthron last edited by
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@polotek @slightlyoff sometimes it suddenly drops with a new major version, and then... starts creeping back up. It's incredible.
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@slightlyoff yeah. No offense to Louis. But I think it's a good example of a subtler point that we're trying to raise. Software developers have really been taught to focus on software that they like to use or that makes them feel more productive. And that has become a proxy for helping them produce better end user software. But that correlation was never actually there.
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@villetakanen Literally anything but legacy desktop frameworks (React, Angular, Ember) is better! And HTML/CSS is best.
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@zkat @slightlyoff I'm super interested in what changed with 3.0 that resulted in such a drop. I'm probably gonna do some more research around changes in bundle size over time.
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@polotek @zkat @slightlyoff it's worth noting that bundlephobia is not an accurate measure of bundle size. it just indicates the size of the things in the package.
many frameworks do transformations at build-time to produce a smaller (or larger) client bundle. a more proper technique would involve creating a hello-world/Counter app and measuring the bundle size
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@polotek @slightlyoff oh there's also NextJS which last I checked was like 87kb , but probably getting bigger.
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@mayank @zkat @slightlyoff understood. It's just a hueristic to start with. And I do think it's likely that there's still a correlation in most cases.
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@konnorrogers @slightlyoff I put Nextjs in a different category. It's a superset of react. For me personally, I'm interested in focusing on the needs smaller projects. In that context, it's very easy for me to tell people they don't need nextjs at all.
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@slightlyoff @mayank @zkat Feels like this would be handy? https://www.realworld.how/
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@polotek @slightlyoff NextJS is closer in relation to Angular and Ember in that both projects ship SSR, routers, etc
It's definitely not apples to apples with React to Angular
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@slightlyoff we really need some kind of software on the client side to handle client-side routing, state, and even basic transversal features such as information submission. It would be the basic for surfing the web so we could call it a "surfer" /s
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@boostmarks current practice is more "suffer" than "surfer", TBH
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Marco Rogersreplied to Konnor Rogers last edited by [email protected]
@konnorrogers @slightlyoff I do think Angular is not the same as react. But default angular does not ship with SSR. You have to add it explicitly.
I think "apples to apples" is often a red herring and a distraction. This same argument could be made in regards to react and lit not really being in the same class of offering. Having perfect categories for these things is not a goal of mine.