It's 2024, the web platform now includes a full component system, CSS we only dreamed of 10 years ago, deferred module loading is now a platform feature, and a fuller JS standard library than it ever has...even in Safari.
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@konnorrogers @slightlyoff I'm sure there are people who still use Ember. But also, who the hell is starting a new project with Ember today?
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@polotek @slightlyoff bundlephobia says 62kb min+zip
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@zkat @slightlyoff we're having the same conversation Kat. Honestly I'm trying to get to exactly where you're describing. I'm just realizing that I don't think we can jump ahead. I think we have to start with the basics and start meeting people where they are.
I'm sorry I had a poor reaction. I know you're always trying to be helpful.
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Alex Russellreplied to Louis Ingenthron last edited by
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Zach Leatherman :11ty:replied to Marco Rogers last edited by
@polotek @slightlyoff I used to regularly measure this for “meta” frameworks but haven’t updated it since last year https://www.zachleat.com/web/site-generator-review/#client-javascript-baseline
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@zkat @slightlyoff oh this is awesome. Thanks!
https://bundlephobia.com/ -
Louis Ingenthronreplied to Alex Russell last edited by
@slightlyoff @polotek Oh, yeah, I was referring to JS frameworks in general.
Why React specifically just seems to be "momentum". Same with git, which I think is terrible software, but I had to learn it because "it's just what people use these days".
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@slightlyoff I just love this thread!
(although why preact not solid )
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@polotek @slightlyoff we're cool nw
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@polotek @slightlyoff literally just now Alex was telling me about meeting people where they are and that's... probably the best step indeed even when it's just reeeeally frustrating after you've done some of the work yourself but I guess it's easy sometimes to lose empathy for how hard it was to pull myself out of the hole of those defaults, too /shrug (as someone who also used to assume React was a good enough default)
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@zkat @slightlyoff Alex has been through this journey and is just patiently (and sometimes not so patiently) waiting on the rest of us to catch up.
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@zkat @slightlyoff what's cool about this is you can also see the chart where the bundle size slowly creeps up with every version. And by cool I mean horrible.
https://bundlephobia.com/package/angul[email protected] -
Alex Russellreplied to Louis Ingenthron last edited by
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@polotek @slightlyoff sometimes it suddenly drops with a new major version, and then... starts creeping back up. It's incredible.
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@slightlyoff yeah. No offense to Louis. But I think it's a good example of a subtler point that we're trying to raise. Software developers have really been taught to focus on software that they like to use or that makes them feel more productive. And that has become a proxy for helping them produce better end user software. But that correlation was never actually there.
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@villetakanen Literally anything but legacy desktop frameworks (React, Angular, Ember) is better! And HTML/CSS is best.
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@zkat @slightlyoff I'm super interested in what changed with 3.0 that resulted in such a drop. I'm probably gonna do some more research around changes in bundle size over time.
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@polotek @zkat @slightlyoff it's worth noting that bundlephobia is not an accurate measure of bundle size. it just indicates the size of the things in the package.
many frameworks do transformations at build-time to produce a smaller (or larger) client bundle. a more proper technique would involve creating a hello-world/Counter app and measuring the bundle size
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@polotek @slightlyoff oh there's also NextJS which last I checked was like 87kb , but probably getting bigger.