Society and politics devroom at FOSDEM?
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Drew DeVaultreplied to Aroop Roelofs :verified: last edited by
@finlaydag33k @SuperDicq can you be clear on what kind of discussion qualifies as the sort of "gender politics" you don't want to see here?
Also, asking you why you are objecting, or saying you're speaking from privilege, neither of these is "silencing you".
You seem to be on the defensive. Let's cool off a bit, no one is attacking you here.
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@[email protected] @[email protected] Personally I must say however that the topics that I would prefer to talk about in context to this hypothetical "politics and society" devroom would be more directly influential topics to the success of free software, such as:
* Copyright reforms.
* Full abolishment of patent law.
* Effective legislation to remove or heavily restrict harmful (especially American) tech monopolies.
* Legalizing sharing (piracy).
* Making sure government money exclusively goes towards the development of free software and never proprietary software.
And some examples of more society oriented topics I'm interested would be:
* Safe and transparent implementations of e-voting.
* Getting rid of our outdated flawed representative democracy system in favor of a more direct or liquid democracy.
* The war on cash and privacy as a result. -
@SuperDicq @finlaydag33k I think there is already quite a bit of room for these topics at FOSDEM, for example in the legal devroom. I'd like to make space specifically for *social* politics, and especially for politics in a form that is not tied up in state institutions (such as the politics of communities)
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Aroop Roelofs :verified:replied to Drew DeVault last edited by
@drewdevault Things like "I'm gender XYZ so I faced discrimination left, right and center, here is the project I made to proof that it was so" (yes, I've actually seen a talks like this on different events).
Again, if it provides meaningful background to why someone made certain decisions in a project? Sure, so be it but the main focus should still be the project itself.
Like, if someone struggled with mental health (eg. due to discrimination for being a certain gender) so they made an app where you can talk to people regarding the issues you have? That's totally fine by me as it provides a meaningful context to why the app came to be, but the app itself is the main focus.That's the thing I wanted to point out: Talks that involve controversial topics often (from personal experience, N=1) tend to focus more that controversial topic than the thing that was made.
In the end, I want to just make awesome stuff together and at the end of the project say "it was a pleasure working with you", regardless of the political alignment of that person.
And my apologies, it seemed like you were trying to silence me for having those different views by saying those things (especially because you said "specifically, well, because of you" and then later called me "privileged").
I get silenced quite a bit for having different views. -
Drew DeVaultreplied to Aroop Roelofs :verified: last edited by
@finlaydag33k @SuperDicq I think you have a reactionary understanding of privilege. Pointing it out is not a tool for silencing, but for contextualizing the discussion. Clarifying things like this is on-topic for the devroom I have in mind.
Why the emphasis on centering the discussion on projects? Why not take a higher level discussion, such as on the community as a whole or subcultures within it?
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@[email protected] @[email protected] I don't think these topics are talked about enough at FOSDEM at all! I go to FOSDEM every year and most talks seem to be about individual projects and technical stuff, while that stuff is really cool and interesting too I feel like the topics I mentioned are not going deep enough.
If you're only specifically talking about the politics of communities I do think that's important but that's not really what I'm interested in. I think if you call the devroom "politics and society" more people will make the assumption that I do about the topics.
Maybe a better name for this devroom would then be something more along the lines of "diversity and inclusiveness" instead? -
Aroop Roelofs :verified:replied to SuperDicq last edited by
@SuperDicq I mean, if it is called "diversity and inclusiveness", it would make it very clear what it would be about definitely so that could work.
That way it does right what it says on the tin and people hopping in know exactly what they are signing up for.
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Drew DeVaultreplied to Aroop Roelofs :verified: last edited by
@finlaydag33k @SuperDicq it's not a DEI room lol, especially given that "DEI" has become a dogwhistle for racists who are too chickenshit to say the N word in public
One topic that I heard which would be on topic is "is it ethical to take donations from Google"
It's a broader sense of politics, ethics, society, which isn't hyperfixated on legislation but a broader perspective which considers that politics and political action comes in many forms and is found in many places
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@finlaydag33k @SuperDicq another proposal was on toxic interactions e.g. in github issues and its contribution to maintainer burnout
Or an open discussion on the Linux kernel community and how it leads to the kind of toxic burnout we saw in the news recently, and how that might be fixed or prevented
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@finlaydag33k @SuperDicq and yes there'd be space for people to talk about gender and such too if it's on topic but don't lash out at any program which could conceivably include the word gender
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@[email protected] @[email protected] "Is it ethical to take donations from Google" sounds more like an invitation to a discussion than the name of a talk to be honest.
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@SuperDicq @finlaydag33k correct. Much of this devroom will be organized in nontraditional formats like roundtables, debates, and communal discussions
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@[email protected] @[email protected] Oh that makes sense then. So basically you're looking for a bunch of topics that we should have a discussion about like ethics and morals in the software world?
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@SuperDicq @finlaydag33k yep, and providing a moderated discussion with facilitators and structured debate in which these topics can be discussed constructively, taking inspiration from consensus decision-making procedures
There's also room for traditional talks w/Q&A but I envision this as being a very participatory program
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@SuperDicq @finlaydag33k and yeah even if someone wants to schedule something like "no one in FOSS understands my gender so let's sit down and figure it out together", I'm down to put that on the program.
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@SuperDicq @finlaydag33k I would love to have a session on reactionary politics in FOSS spaces, for another example
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@[email protected] @[email protected] I do have a lingering feeling that even after all this time since the 2019 smear campaign discussions about Richard Stallman can not be avoided if you're organizing something like this.
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@SuperDicq @finlaydag33k RMS is a shitty person and talking about that is on-topic as far as I'm concerned. It's not a smear campaign if it's true.
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@SuperDicq @finlaydag33k of course that topic would be carefully moderated and would focus on keeping it factual and respectful without leveling personal attacks and vitriol -- but the fact of the matter is that RMS is a problem
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@[email protected] @[email protected] The fact you immediately state "rms is a problem" I think I have some doubts about your ability to moderate discussion about this topic in an unbiased manner.