In the olden days, a FOSS (Free/Open Source Software) project typically had:
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Juanlureplied to Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange: last edited by
@jwildeboer That's fair enough but didn't answer my second question, sorry
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Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to feld last edited by
@feld Signal groups as backchannel for core developers and security issues makes a lot of sense, IMHO. @david_chisnall
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Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to Juanlu last edited by
@astrojuanlu My solution isn't to go back to anything. I just want to promote to care more about the openness and inclusivity of a project. Because it seems we have reduced the priority of that.
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Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange: last edited by
@astrojuanlu So for my next project I will use Codeberg with a mirror repo on Github (mostly for releases), try to keep discussions in the issue tracker and maybe add one or two mailing lists with public archives. And that will be it. If community members/maintainers want to have a chat solution, we will discuss and I, as project leader, will demand that it MUST be open to everyone and the project has full control over all content.
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Matthew Lyonreplied to Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange: last edited by [email protected]
@jwildeboer If IRC solved its authn issues & didnβt put the responsibility for channel history on the client requiring a bouncer, Iβd be less apprehensive about this
but as someone who used to use it a lot ~ β94-2010: irc as it was put up a very high barrier to entry & its culture rewarded the very online
I know there have been attempts to address these concerns but until people care about them enough to drag ALL OF IRC into the 2000s, I think itβs a hard case to make
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Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to Matthew Lyon last edited by
@mattly I am sure the XMPP crowd will wake up soon and promote their approach
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Latte macchiato :blobcoffee: :ablobcat_longlong:replied to Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange: last edited by
@[email protected] Both mailing lists and IRC suck. There's a reason they were replaced.
I'm on two mailing lists and they're already a massive pain in the ass. We don't have to use tech from the 90s religiously. -
Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to Latte macchiato :blobcoffee: :ablobcat_longlong: last edited by
@privateger I am not demanding to return to IRC and mailing lists. I do ask however if requiring the use of proprietary systems like discord is a good choice for an Open Source/Free Software project.
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@jwildeboer
Not really software, but I've tried running a project consisting of mostly young people with a mix of discord and github. Where they decide stuff on discord then someone (practically me) takes the conclusion and puts it in a repoI'm pretty sure IRC/Matrix are a high barrier of entry for them, as they already use discord for everything. So in that sense, IRC is the locked down platform
Mailing are a bit different in the sense that everyone has an email, but it still requires some unusual forms of communication which isn't as easily migratable from discordThere is also a small use case where discussions must happen in private, so that goes against the full openness nature if your suggestion. For example moderation concern discussions. Which discord just so happens to have private channels to use. IRC/Matrix also do of course, but just wanted to mention a use case for locking down discussions behind a barrier.
(The use of github (and git in general) is also hard for them, but more so because they're not software developers, so it's not as applicable to the topic)
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Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to Guest last edited by
@luca Sure. For backchannels to be used by moderators, core devs and for security stuff I would use Signal. I wouldn't trust Discord or Matrix for those sensitive things.
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Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange: last edited by
@luca But a more general problem: right now a lot of people have discord accounts. A few years ago that would have been Facebook. And in a few years it will be another (centralised) thing. From a sustainability perspective that's kind of a big problem, IMHO.
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@feld @jwildeboer You can probably have a bot connect to the Signal chat and mirror it publicly, if that's what you want.
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Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to david_chisnall last edited by
@david_chisnall (I definitely wouldn't want that @feld
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@0leil @jwildeboer after running a largeish project for a decade now I am immediately skeptical of anyone saying, "you won't get contributions from me unless you change something".
In practice this has always landed somewhere between "when pigs fly" and "don't threaten me with a good time".
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Vadim Rutkovskyreplied to Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange: last edited by@jwildeboer >At least one mailing list called announce, typically also one for users and one for contributors
fwiw I've never seen that work as designed. A lot of user questions went straight to contributors list - this is where all the cool kids hang out duh -
Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to Vadim Rutkovsky last edited by
@vadim Same as with any channel. Set up IRC channels for users and devs - they all are in devs. Set up matrix channels that way, same. But mailing lists like announce were typically configured to be moderated, only allowing very few people to post.
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LogicalErzorreplied to Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange: last edited by
@jwildeboer Hm, I do agree with summarizing the outcome for others to catch up on, however it might be better to have software that groups chat up in a certain way? Like Zulip or Codeberg issues
Problem with Matrix/Discord is that you get repeated questions because 1) search isnβt good 2) there are no βthreadsβ to limit a conversation to one topic
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Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to LogicalErzor last edited by
@Logical_Error In my experience (and that's around 25 years and various projects): When you offer synchronous communication (AKA chat), people will ask first and search later. They have an itch, they post it in a chat and hope for (or sometimes demand) answers. They won't read the FAQ nor the chat rules. With synchronous communication channels like e-mail or issues, there is more motivation to check first (not a lot, though but also more acceptance for delayed answers. Pick your poison )
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jon βreplied to Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange: last edited by
@jwildeboer
Would you have some reference to the "only what is coded or in the list archive exists"? This may be an important building block for some other work in another area. -
Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange: last edited by [email protected]
More reading material (free for all) from my daily library that you may find useful:
- https://www.theopensourceway.org (from 2020, but full of timeless knowledge)
- Social Architecture by the late Pieter Hintjens at https://hintjens.gitbooks.io/social-architecture/content/chapter1.htmlFrom that book, chapter 4, the C4 (collective code construction contract) annotated description is the one thing you should REALLY read
7/7 and end