In the olden days, a FOSS (Free/Open Source Software) project typically had:
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Miah Johnsonreplied to Proxfox Virtual Environment π¦ last edited by
@tay @lunareclipse @jwildeboer FAQs can also store the answers to infrequent , but common questions.
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Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to feld last edited by
@feld I don't even think of using IRC that much. I am describing what we did in the past and how all of that had one thing in common: being open and accessible. Compare that to having to have accounts on two or three external (proprietary) services *per project* you are interested in. THAT's my point.
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Proxfox Virtual Environment π¦replied to Miah Johnson last edited by
@miah @lunareclipse @jwildeboer
a) what maintainer is going to put the answer to every single question they've been asked on a FAQ
b) who's going to read a FAQ with a 200 lines TOC
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Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to Proxfox Virtual Environment π¦ last edited by
@tay I get it, no matter what we say, you will come back with a "yes, but". I will mute this thread now and concentrate on the more productive parts @miah @lunareclipse
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feldreplied to Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange: last edited by@jwildeboer What is our best option to replace those services, though?
I think we're basically looking at Gitter, Mattermost, and RocketChat with Gitter being the most open option (no enterprise/proprietary features // "open core" junk) -
david_chisnallreplied to Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange: last edited by
@jwildeboer For #CHERIoT, we're using Signal for the public chat. It is similar to IRC and I've set it to auto-delete messages after one week. This ensures that people don't think of it as a place for discussions that they might want to reference in the future. We have the rule that you describe: if there's a discussion that has longer-term value there, someone should write it up.
GitHub Discussions and Issues are for our persistent discussions and where people write up the conclusions from the chats. They're easier to search than mailing list archives and they're readable / searchable without creating an account on GitHub.
The Signal group is easy to join (click on a link or scan a QR code) and doesn't require agreeing to anyone's abusive lack-of-privacy policy. The desktop app uses Electron, but somehow uses a fraction of the memory of other chat things.
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Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to feld last edited by
@feld The very first question should always be: how much value do these services bring to your project and at what price? Devils advocate question: do we really need these tools or are they maybe a time and resource black hole? I for ne wouldn't even think of adding discord, matrix to my projects. Code, issues, releases via forgejo/codeberg/github , a homepage and maybe a mailing list would be enough for me. So I guess I am the wrong person to ask about alternatives ...
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@david_chisnall @jwildeboer Signal is a clever use for this, but I think for many projects it would be best if there was accessible chat history and search.
You've got me thinking though... -
Juanlureplied to Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange: last edited by
@jwildeboer That's fair enough but didn't answer my second question, sorry
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Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to feld last edited by
@feld Signal groups as backchannel for core developers and security issues makes a lot of sense, IMHO. @david_chisnall
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Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to Juanlu last edited by
@astrojuanlu My solution isn't to go back to anything. I just want to promote to care more about the openness and inclusivity of a project. Because it seems we have reduced the priority of that.
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Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange: last edited by
@astrojuanlu So for my next project I will use Codeberg with a mirror repo on Github (mostly for releases), try to keep discussions in the issue tracker and maybe add one or two mailing lists with public archives. And that will be it. If community members/maintainers want to have a chat solution, we will discuss and I, as project leader, will demand that it MUST be open to everyone and the project has full control over all content.
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Matthew Lyonreplied to Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange: last edited by [email protected]
@jwildeboer If IRC solved its authn issues & didnβt put the responsibility for channel history on the client requiring a bouncer, Iβd be less apprehensive about this
but as someone who used to use it a lot ~ β94-2010: irc as it was put up a very high barrier to entry & its culture rewarded the very online
I know there have been attempts to address these concerns but until people care about them enough to drag ALL OF IRC into the 2000s, I think itβs a hard case to make
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Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to Matthew Lyon last edited by
@mattly I am sure the XMPP crowd will wake up soon and promote their approach
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Latte macchiato :blobcoffee: :ablobcat_longlong:replied to Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange: last edited by
@[email protected] Both mailing lists and IRC suck. There's a reason they were replaced.
I'm on two mailing lists and they're already a massive pain in the ass. We don't have to use tech from the 90s religiously. -
Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to Latte macchiato :blobcoffee: :ablobcat_longlong: last edited by
@privateger I am not demanding to return to IRC and mailing lists. I do ask however if requiring the use of proprietary systems like discord is a good choice for an Open Source/Free Software project.
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@jwildeboer
Not really software, but I've tried running a project consisting of mostly young people with a mix of discord and github. Where they decide stuff on discord then someone (practically me) takes the conclusion and puts it in a repoI'm pretty sure IRC/Matrix are a high barrier of entry for them, as they already use discord for everything. So in that sense, IRC is the locked down platform
Mailing are a bit different in the sense that everyone has an email, but it still requires some unusual forms of communication which isn't as easily migratable from discordThere is also a small use case where discussions must happen in private, so that goes against the full openness nature if your suggestion. For example moderation concern discussions. Which discord just so happens to have private channels to use. IRC/Matrix also do of course, but just wanted to mention a use case for locking down discussions behind a barrier.
(The use of github (and git in general) is also hard for them, but more so because they're not software developers, so it's not as applicable to the topic)
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Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to Guest last edited by
@luca Sure. For backchannels to be used by moderators, core devs and for security stuff I would use Signal. I wouldn't trust Discord or Matrix for those sensitive things.
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Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange:replied to Jan Wildeboer π·:krulorange: last edited by
@luca But a more general problem: right now a lot of people have discord accounts. A few years ago that would have been Facebook. And in a few years it will be another (centralised) thing. From a sustainability perspective that's kind of a big problem, IMHO.
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@feld @jwildeboer You can probably have a bot connect to the Signal chat and mirror it publicly, if that's what you want.