The promise of frontend frameworks was that a local snapshot of the app's data model would be faster to operate on than a server round-trip.This is a measurable question, and for nearly every class of app, the reality is that you should keep your data ...
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The promise of frontend frameworks was that a local snapshot of the app's data model would be faster to operate on than a server round-trip.
This is a measurable question, and for nearly every class of app, the reality is that you should keep your data on the server and send partials to innerHTML if you want "interactivity".
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@slightlyoff yes ‘select * from everyFuckingTable’ throwing it down the pipe and having JavaScript figure it out was never a solution. It was only a problem.
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@slightlyoff have you written more on this? I would like to see it. "Reactivity" in websites, where an update in one part updates another seems like a common use-case better handled client-side rather than sending it to the server and asking for a new state back
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@crmsnbleyd It usually *seems* like a better idea until you measure. That's the thing; once you put numbers on the intuition, reality can surprise you!
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@slightlyoff Rails has had it right for almost 2 decades.
It's still the most productive tool I've worked with at all but the smallest scale projects.
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@octothorpe If you ever want a good cry -- a really deep, cleansing lolsob session -- go check out *just the HTML* that the NYT sends down the wire.
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*"Oh no! But now I can't have exactly the same code on the client as the server!"*
Um, yes. That's the point.
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@slightlyoff and before anyone gives the "you're most productive in whatever you know best" excuse, I should clarify: I'm not talking about myself in isolation, I'm describing being someone managing multiple dev teams, not being hands-on, and optimising their *net* productivity over *years*.
We tried Big JS
and it failed to deliver for both our developers AND our users. -
@slightlyoff when people come to terms with the fact *you only need a little on the client* this ceases to be a real problem, but admitting that would upset a lot of fragile egos that secretly crave the complexity to remain relevant.
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@ryantownsend finechina.js
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@slightlyoff with J2CL or GWT you (to some extent) can. Very convenient!
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@HeinzAchmed and horribly slow! Terrible ideas don't get better with repetition.
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@slightlyoff that is simply not true. Neither runtime nor build-time issues. Of course you can write shitty Web apps in whatever your preferred way is.
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@HeinzAchmed we saw so much #fail from GWT at Google. Just overwhelming amounts. Like, it took years to get to a point where hashmaps weren't a total footgun.
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@slightlyoff @tante no one has that anyways. It’s different domains which require different logic.
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@slightlyoff js frameworks may be a mess with local state, but what about using a service worker to cache and fetch html fragments from the browser cache/indexeddb/opfs etc? Surely that's the best experience of all?
Likewise the broader umbrella of Local First web apps? https://localfirstweb.dev/
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@nickchomey It's a pattern I am hoping to see a lot more of!
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