Damn, that BcacheFS developer is really unhinged.
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popeyreplied to Nick @ The Linux Experiment last edited by
@thelinuxEXP Absolutely! I believe that the CoC created by Mako for #Ubuntu was one of the big draws for many of us contributors.
A minimum set of guidelines setting expectations of behaviour is an entirely reasonable thing.
We have had CoC's in the real world for years. Talk smack in a pub, and there will be consequences. The same goes for schools, the workplace, and public transport.
Online is no different. It reflects the real world, though. The real world is full of people who differ.
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@thelinuxEXP The _big_ problem is that the world is full of very different people. They have differing beliefs, moral compasses, social norms, lived experiences, mental states, and cultures.
Some believe that CoCs attempt to eliminate those differences.
They're wrong. It's all about respectful behaviour. But if we all followed CoCs all the time, then there would be no need for grievance processes in the workplace.
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The issue of CoC for me is not about the "code", but how to establish a proper way to judge violations in a way that does not become a tyranny of the majority.
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@raphael @popey @thelinuxEXP
If the majority can't enforce its rules, they're just wishes, not rules. -
@Corb_The_Lesser @popey @thelinuxEXP
I'm not sure I follow. The rules are not for the majority, they should be for everyone. And when you talk about enforcement (when I was talking about due process to judge violations) it seems like you are advocating mob rule.
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What's the point of having rules of behavior if they aren't enforced?
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@Corb_The_Lesser @popey @thelinuxEXP
1) Blind adherence to "the rules" brings us to a hellish society with low trust and favor those with authoritarian inclinations.
2) Countless cases in history where "the rules" were created with the interests of an elite and the detriment of "the majority". Jaywalking, for example. Do you think everyone crossing the street on a red light should be fined?
3) Why are you talking about "enforced", if the point I am talking about is "no good due process"?
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@raphael @Corb_The_Lesser @thelinuxEXP
Strawman. Nobody mentioned blind adherence. Indeed, most codes of conduct have changed and improved over time. They usually have a process for escalation of disagreement. This isn't a gulag.
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@popey @Corb_The_Lesser @thelinuxEXP
I am responding to this idea that "rules are only worth anything if they can be enforced", not any specific team that published a CoC and kept it as ultimate doctrine.
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@raphael @popey @thelinuxEXP Adults view membership in a group as incurring an obligation to honor the rules and standards of the group and accepting the consequences if they don't.
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@Corb_The_Lesser @popey @thelinuxEXP
No disagreement here. But you are failing to address the main point: different people will have different Interpretations in regards to the rules, and they will also have different opinions about what should be the consequences for each violation.
So, yes, while in principle I am on board with the idea of a "Code", I also understand those who disengage out of fear of being unfairly being accused of anything.
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@raphael @popey @thelinuxEXP Yes, if you don't like the group's rules or the way you're being treated, you have the option of leaving the group.
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@Corb_The_Lesser @popey @thelinuxEXP
So, yeah, not only you are doubling down on promoting mob rules, you are being overly aggressive for no reason.
I guess it's time to leave you to your own self-righteousness. Have a good one.
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@raphael @Corb_The_Lesser @popey @thelinuxEXP I think you'd have an easier time playing devils advocate if you weren't doing so in the context of bcachefs. Have you kept up with his arguments with Linus? He literally thinks he's above the rules of contributing to the kernel.
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@matkeith @[email protected] @popey @thelinuxEXP
You are right, I am not at all aware of what's going in this case.
What I am saying though is this belief that "we would have no problem if everyone just followed CoCs" is misguided, *precisely* because teams can be so diverse in backgrounds and values, which leads to different ideas of what is offensive or not, what is appropriate or not, what is "light humor" and what is "gross and discriminatory", etc, etc.
