I would like to quote something
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@danderson ah yes, reason 100.000,00 for confusion.
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@danderson Related to this (but not typography): Alphabetic order is different in different languages. German alone has at least 3 (two standardized versions from Germany, one from Austria). They differ in how they handle the Umlaute (ä, ö, ü) and ß. Danish has an ä and ö too, but sorts them after z, while in German, they are sorted somwhere at a and o respectively.
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Alerta! Alerta!replied to Dave Anderson last edited by
@danderson Is that based on the language of the main text or of the quoted text?
/me runs for cover
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@bjorn_fahller
It is mostly "old Swedish books" by now, pick up some books from the 30s-70s to see that in wide use.I think I've seen it in some more recent print too, but the "" version is by far more common now.
@danderson @tendstofortytwo -
@danderson Does it depend on the main language used or the language of quoted text? Like, if my main document language is English, and I'm quoting Russian, would I use Russian quotes? (Same as French quotes btw)
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CodeByJeff - Now with AI!replied to Dave Anderson last edited by
@danderson Japanese...
「 そとに たべに いこう」
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@maswan @bjorn_fahller Yep. Fell out of favor decades ago for some reason.
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hypha - a fungus elementreplied to Dave Anderson last edited by
@danderson this one has read german journal with slovenian quoted, strange
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Sky, Cozy Goth Prince of Catsreplied to Dave Anderson last edited by
@danderson 「日本語」(Japanese)
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Tero Ykspetäjäreplied to Björn Fahller last edited by
@bjorn_fahller @danderson @tendstofortytwo It’s still relatively common in Finnish books, although I think ” is more common nowadays (we have the same conventions as Swedish re: quoting),
Also, dialog in Finnish books: start a quote with an en dash, use no quote marks.
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Dave Andersonreplied to Tero Ykspetäjä last edited by
@tero @bjorn_fahller @tendstofortytwo Unicode also mentions that in the age of computers, partly due to the early dominance of the USA and UK, a lot of writing cultures have adopted some of English's typesetting rules, either for convenience so that the ascii keyboard is usable with minimal modifications, or because US made software didn't offer the local convention, and so a whole generation never learned their native typographic traditions.
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@skysailor yup a little bit after that screenshot there's a section on asian scripts and what they do, which is equally wild once you incorporate all the variations and traditions!
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Dave Andersonreplied to hypha - a fungus element last edited by
@hypha for the amusing shitpost I cut out the large amount of text around the summary that indeed says that these traditions mix with each other, sometimes it depends on the publisher or the field (e.g. mathematics paper vs sociology journal), and also the time period. A lot of per country typographic tradition is being replaced by English typographic style just because computers make that style most accessible, so in the last few decades the differences have reduced a lot.
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@mkj @maswan @bjorn_fahller @tendstofortytwo simple reason: ascii put " on the keyboard, and early word processing software wasn't very aware of local typographic traditions. People started doing "whatever the computer can do", which was a simplified form of English quoting style.
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@vort3 that depends on the country publishing the book! In some countries the tradition is to use the guest language style in quotes, in others the host language style dominates (with usually increasingly ridiculous rules for nested quotes). Even within one country, sometimes it comes down to the style manual of specific publishing houses.
Writing: a game where all the rules are made up
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Dave Andersonreplied to Alerta! Alerta! last edited by
@heiglandreas amazingly, Unicode addresses this! Like all typography things, the answer is "it depends"
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Alerta! Alerta!replied to Dave Anderson last edited by
@danderson Unicode addresses that in terms of "it contains all the characters". Yes.
But it doesn't address it in terms of "which character to use" as it's locale specific and unicode is just a character set (which is locale-agnostic)
I could imagine that ICU though has some features for that.
And yes: It's always based on the general lamguage. Not on the quoted language
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Dave Andersonreplied to Alerta! Alerta! last edited by
@heiglandreas the spec addresses it somewhat, although non exhaustively certainly. A large chunk of the Unicode spec is devoted to each script/script family that Unicode can represent, and how to manipulate it correctly to match the expectations of the language's user.
Nowhere near enough by itself of course, but Unicode goes far beyond just a code point database! Especially if you consider CLDR to be part of the Unicode family.
But the work is never done! An amazing project.
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@heiglandreas I do wonder, as a thought exercise, how much "more" is required for reasonably good text editing beyond Unicode+CLDR+all the technical reports and notes and so on. Quite a lot I'm sure, but I don't have a good intuition for how much of the required wisdom is already contained in those documents _somewhere_.
Probably input methods is the massive missing component for non latin languages...
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@heiglandreas and... Yes, after rereading the relevant spec section, I got carried away with that claim on quoting! I'm not sure it's possible to claim that style mixing between languages _never_ happens. e.g. a book about typesetting in other languages might choose to mix deliberately because it's important to the meaning. Although hopefully they would use a block quote or something instead. But, for the general rule, I was wrong, thank you for the correction!
