The troubling parts of Stallman's statements on age of consent are primarily in his conclusions, not in his arguments.

CharLES ☭ H

Indeed, his arguments are extremely dated and now unpopular, but this was very much an active discourse 30 years ago, which is probably when he first started posting them.

The age of consent today is 16 in the UK, but 18 in the US, which is actually quite high. What's more is that culturally, UK teens enjoy a gradual emancipation, where as US 17 year olds really are treated entirely as children (unless they get caught up in the criminal justice system) and are infantilised in a way that is especially harmful to queer teens.

RMS makes the very reasonable point that teens deserve some measure of privacy and bodily autonomy and then concludes therefore it's fine if a 50 year old man "flirts" with a 15 year old girl and generally carries on making her uncomfortable until he hears a clear "no". (This is not fine. Good argument. Terrible conclusion.)

It's also not fine if a 50 year old "flirts" with an 18 year old, but at least she's more likely to have some experience defending herself from unwanted attention, because, let's be clear, the inappropriate behaviour very much does start by 15. Because cishet men can get away with it.

In practice, the way the law has been applied in the US creates problems for queer youth. For a teen with homophobic parents, a queer relationship between an 18 or 19 year old and a 17 year old can be criminally prosecuted. Creepy cishet adults are not deterred by the law or norms, but many queer adults do not want to interact with minors at all because the law does apply to us. When I was a youth, this dynamic was tremendously isolating, but I hope the internet and some societal improvement has made this better. Isolated teens are more vulnerable to predation, not less. Some laws that nominally protect teens seem to be actually intended to enable harms.

LGBT activists in the UK fought to for an equal age of consent for queer and straight-passing relationships, which they won in 2000, when it was finally lowered to 16.

There is a real argument to be made about whether the US should copy the British model of laws, norms and expectations around teenagers. This discussion should be lead by teenagers and queer people.

Not by RMS! Because he also writes as the champion of creepy middle aged men! He lumps the real struggles of teens in with the minor inconveniences of frustrated perverts. This is gross and wildly unhelpful. Frustratingly, the report on his many misdeeds also copies this error. Again, RMS and his ilk (and those who follow his logic) cannot and should not lead this discourse.

Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:

@celesteh I'm going to disagree with you on 18 year olds being able to defend themselves. It depends on the 18 year old.

I was 19 and barely managed to defend myself from my work colleagues in their 40s. There's a power differential there. Stallman advocates for that differential. His line was from 12 or 13 onwards.

Which is the point of the earlier part.

On Bears

(www.onepict.com)

The more serious part is the FSF board and Bradley being ejected and RMS voting on that.

Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:

@celesteh however I do agree that teens do need their privacy and a safe space to explore that.

I don't think FOSS is that welcoming and safe with Stallman and other abusers in that space.

We need projects that are open with their boundaries and who don't tolerate abusive behaviour.

We allow too much leeway at times.

CharLES ☭ H

@onepict I'm trans, so I have lived experience of unwelcome attention from like 7th grade until I transitioned.

I wasn't intending to say that it was fine to ignore power imbalances or that middle aged people should feel entitled to hassle young adults, but rather to acknowledge that this does happen to femme people over and under the age of consent.

Just to be extra clear, I wrote to the FSF a few years ago to demand Stallman be sacked. They did sack him, but then gave him his job back which I still feel was a grave error. I am not on his side, but I don't think this report is on my side.

Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:

@celesteh The scope of the report does seem very focused. Which is mainly on the idea of consent and the FSF board stuff.

I think there needs to be a larger discussion about civil liberties activism in the late 60s and early 70s, RMSs views didn't form in a vacuum.

Sexual liberation and gay rights were badly needed. So there were discussions about children being able to consent.

Plus in the UK we had section 28 as you know. People don't have the historical reference.

Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:

@celesteh Instead we're all specifically focusing on RMS when we need to be taking a longer look at our communities in general.

Although I am looking at this from a very cis perspective.

But there's a lot of emotional reaction from folks who are very defensive of RMS, which I understand. I don't agree with them.

But like you, I think the time for RMS to have gone was 2019. Here we are.

Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:

@celesteh I think with consent though the power differential does matter.

Children can't consent, you need to have some idea of the consequences down the line.

My main takeaway from that report is that the idea of enthusiastic consent, where boundaries are discussed is ignored or downplayed by RMS. That attitude is replicated elsewhere.

Queer folks need that safe space to explore and discuss. I wish I'd had that as a teen.

CharLES ☭ H

@onepict your points were super interesting and a helpful frame. Ive made yet another post https://lgbt.io/@celesteh/113336561602037409

Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:

@celesteh thank you. Like the folks who fought for our freedoms are human beings and we're only as good as the folks around us and what we choose to fight for and listen to.

For me it was learning about the Student Riots in 1968 and then the petitions about civil rights and the restricted freedoms of queer folks in France. The UK at the time were also campaigning for gay rights and civil liberties. Within those very needed campaigns you had some bad actors.

Esther Payne :bisexual_flag:

@celesteh It's how we ended up with Gabriel Matzneff , and the french intellectual community arguing for freedoms, which informed thinking elsewhere. These ideas of freedoms were around.

Context does matter.

https://www.publicbooks.org/france-and-the-question-of-consent/

But with Vanessa Springora's book coming out, we're past the time of excusing Stallman's approach to the idea of consent.

He's done great things, but he and others need to consider how they've caused exclusion. Like you've noted in your post.