@mmccue - new numbers, but ones that tell the same story we discussed on your podcast: on my server, we have about 1 moderator to 500 users. Here are the new numbers on how that dynamic plays out for major social platforms in the EU:
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@mike- new numbers, but ones that tell the same story we discussed on your podcast: on my server, we have about 1 moderator to 500 users. Here are the new numbers on how that dynamic plays out for major social platforms in the EU:
"X does have the worst ratio of moderation staff to users, at 1/60,249, with LinkedIn coming in second (1/41,652), then TikTok (1/22,586) and Meta (1/17,600)."
https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/x-has-significantly-fewer-moderation-staff/714650/
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@tchambers @mmccue @rolle imho community moderation always wins out when building online groups. We will self moderate and it’ll be fairly balanced. Is not perfect but we are generally more invested in making this a better place.
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@tchambers Thanks for sharing! Here is a back-of-the-envelope calculation for the whole Fediverse, using data from fedidb.org:
Assuming that Monthly Active Users (MAUs) are the relevant quantity, and assuming further that there is at least one admin or moderator per server, the ratio is (1 million) to (27 thousand) which is approximately 1/37.
Take that with a pinch of salt though, it is but a very crude estimate which averages over wildly differently-sized instances etc.
(EDIT: *May* data)
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@tchambers And if we look at the total Fediverse user count, not the MAUs?
There are about 10 million users according to fedidb.org, so we get a ratio of 1/370.
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@fediplomacy @tchambers I think you want the total number of accounts, not just MAUs..
So 15119615 / 27788 ~= 544 users per moderator.
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@fediplomacy @tchambers Does that better ratio also hold if you look at the largest server? How many mods are there on mastodon.social (about 20% of both accounts and MAU's. The MAU is an order of magnitude above all other servers.) Do we know?
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Yes, this is an important distinction.
It should also be noted that this is not an apples-to-apples distinction:
* How many moderator _hours_ are being used? This is going to be largely homogenous between the major platforms, it is not homogenous for the fediverse.
* How many moderators are _paid_? This is going to be largely homogenous between major platforms, it is not homogenous for the fediverse
* How much _duplication of effort_ is there?
etc.
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@hrefna @thisismissem @fediplomacy A fair point that it is only one data point, but it is the only data on moderation the big platforms have submitted to the EU to this degree.
And as a non-paid Moderator, I am sure with certainty that I do more work on this than I would if I were paid at a 9-5pm gig.
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@hrefna @thisismissem @fediplomacy Also: I'd wager that most Mastodon admins know their server users better, and know the local community that their server focuses on better than say a moderator covering all of say, France, or the entire EU...
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@tchambers @hrefna @fediplomacy I've actually an issue open for creating a moderation statistics endpoint, to try to add transparency to moderation practices, which could help here.
Add moderation statistics endpoint · Issue #27561 · mastodon/mastodon
Pitch Currently across mastodon instances, we've no real data as to how well moderated instances are. Whilst the DSA's rules for VLOPs and moderation transparency do not apply to Mastodon instances at present (if ever), we should definit...
GitHub (github.com)
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@ton @tchambers I couldn't find the number of moderators (or moderator-hours) on mastodon.social from a cursory look.
My guess is that no, the averaged ratio will not hold. There will be many more users (registered and monthly active) per moderator.
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With respect: you are dipping into wishful thinking and/or propaganda.
What do these things look like for the ten largest servers, which make up 80% of the non-threads userbase?
You may also spend more time and know your users better, but that is not a uniform value.
You can argue that there are many advantages to the way that the fediverse handles these things, but comparing with the raw numbers from the EU report is not how you do that.
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Jenniferplusplusreplied to Hrefna (DHC) on last edited by
@hrefna @tchambers @thisismissem @fediplomacy
I think that trying to make broad statements about the (non-threads) fediverse as a whole is likely playing into the hands of big platforms. I think it would be more informative to treat them like big fedi servers, than treat the fediverse like a small platform. -
@thisismissem @tchambers @hrefna Very cool! We have been discussing something like an "admin load meter" for the server status page in the team too.
We found it challenging to conceptualize it as a metric (akin to the usual CPU load thingy with averages for 1/5/15 minutes) that – looping back to the discussion in the thread above – "somehow" "correctly" conveys instance size, user base, number of posts, moderation queue length .... an interesting design question to work on.
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Dmitry Borodaenkoreplied to Hrefna (DHC) on last edited by
@hrefna @tchambers @thisismissem @fediplomacy Another important reason there can't be an apples to apples comparison is that moderators at Facebook have almost zero discretion, they are required to comply with the letter of hundreds of pages of instructions, and their quota limits the time they can spend on a single moderation request to less than a minute.
This makes Fedi moderation more labor intensive and higher quality, but makes raw numbers comparison meaningless.
Compare the outcomes.
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@hrefna @thisismissem @fediplomacy
Did I get this right? Your argument to the indieweb.social example is that my situation may be uncommon of most Mastodon servers, and as evidence, that the 10 largest Mastodon servers may have significantly worse user-to-moderator ratios?
I think I also heard that my moderating experience and hours compared to paid mods may be unusual.
I want to consider the objections but first make sure I'm hearing them accurately.
How are "non-threads" relevant?
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Tim Chambersreplied to Dmitry Borodaenko on last edited by
@angdraug @hrefna @thisismissem @fediplomacy It is a good point that quality control of commercial mods can vary too. And that many on paid services are likely so overturned -- as the mod to user rates from the EU show.
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@fediplomacy @ton In 2016 they had six mods. I'm sure that number is FAR higher by now.... But today, mastodon.social's current MAU via Fedidb is abt 238K users. So check my math is that 1 moderator for every 39,333 users at the single largest mato server?
And I can imagine that they might have grown their mods a good deal since then.
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It's a great point, this diversity is such an important aspect of the fediverse (and not just for moderation of course) that it's really worth highlighting. The experience on a well-moderated small-to-medium size invitation-onl instance is very different from a larger open registration instance. Or, look at the difference between the microblogging realms of the fediverse are different than in the Lemmyverse -- where community moderators also have a role, but moderation tools are weak and the tankie ratio is high.
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