I'm wondering how my renderings from 3-D virtual worlds could be made accessible to deaf-blind Fediverse users, if there are any.I've read somewhere that they have no use for visual descriptions. They want to know what someone or something feels like w...

Scott M. Stolz

One way would be to approach it as if you were writing a book in text format. A book with no images will describe things in a way that gives you a mental image.

Normally an author has a picture in their head and they convert it to written form. Except in this case, you are starting with an image (rendering) and then converting it to written form.

If there is a story behind the rendering, then include that, as it would make the description more compelling, both for people who can see & hear, and those who can't. People are more likely to feel a story than a technical description of the item.

Ideally, we get feedback from deaf and blind people. And perhaps some feedback from writers too.

I think we need to come up with a way to create a working group or interest group on accessibility, or get involved in an existing group. Because I think that simply asking for feedback from random people won't be enough.

Jupiter Rowland

@Scott M. Stolz

I think we need to come up with a way to create a working group or interest group on accessibility, or get involved in an existing group. Because I think that simply asking for feedback from random people won't be enough.

Yes, and it'll have to involve as many Mastodon users as possible. This means that it'll have to be reasonably easy for Mastodon users to use without having to jump through hoops.

Scott M. Stolz

@Jupiter Rowland

Yes, and it'll have to involve as many Mastodon users as possible. This means that it'll have to be reasonably easy for Mastodon users to use without having to jump through hoops.

Setting up a Hubzilla forum and turning on ActivityPub is easy enough. It is compatible with Mastodon, and they can interact with the forum remotely via Mastodon if they wanted. That part is easy. The tougher part is recruiting enough people who are interested in the topic so we have valuable discussions and recommendations.

UnCoveredMyths

@jupiter_rowland @accessibility @a11y

I am sure that varies.

For me, what is it similar in shape to and size to?

Is it like a ball, the size of a basketball?

Some things are simply not really describable without a 3 D model. Those are very difficult to have an alt text description for.

I think I once saw a science alt text guide, for situations like this, I don't think I saved the link.

I still have some vision and hearing. So I can still relate items to things I remember seeing and hearing.

Those totally deafblind from birth will have different experiences, needs, and wants.

Jupiter Rowland

@Scott M. Stolz

Setting up a Hubzilla forum and turning on ActivityPub is easy enough. It is compatible with Mastodon, and they can interact with the forum remotely via Mastodon if they wanted. That part is easy.

If it's intuitive enough for Mastodon users who barely know the rest of the Fediverse by name to use a Hubzilla forum.

The tougher part is recruiting enough people who are interested in the topic so we have valuable discussions and recommendations.

I think that'd be a question of asking the right people if they're willing to discuss the topic of accessibility in the Fediverse. And these people certainly exist.

If it works well enough, they might advertise the forum to other users themselves.

Jupiter Rowland

@UnCoveredMyths Well, it isn't just about the size and shape. That'd be easy because these virtual worlds consist of 3-D models.

It's more about what it feels like to touch someone's skin, a piece of someone's clothing, the surface of an object. It's that kind of tactile information that many deaf-blind people go after, and it's only that kind of tactile information that they're interested in.

But how am I supposed to describe what it feels like to touch something that can't be touched because it simply doesn't have a physical real-life existence?

Okay, so that avatar is wearing a tweed jacket. But that tweed isn't really tweed fabric. It's a digital painting of tweed fabric on an object which actually has no material whatsoever and no physical properties whatsoever. You can't reach out your hand and lay your fingertips on that jacket and feel it.

Even if that jacket's surface was bump-mapped or normal-mapped, which it isn't, it still couldn't be touched and felt.

Now, someone could suggest I should describe what things would feel like if they were actually real in the physical realm. But I prefer my image descriptions to be accurate and, most importantly, truthful.

And besides, what about objects that do not have a texture that represents any real-life material? Not only are they without any physical properties, but they don't even suggest any life-like physical properties. Even I don't know what it'd feel like to touch them.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #VirtualWorlds #DeafBlind #A11y #Accessibility

James Edwards

@jupiter_rowland Can you imagine what unreal surfaces would feel like? For example, if it’s shiny or rough or looks plasticky, you could mentally conceive of what it might feel like, and then describe that.

You can make it clear in descriptions that you’re talking about virtual content and so the descriptions are speculative, and that would still be of value to a reader who otherwise gets nothing they can relate to.

Jupiter Rowland

@James Edwards That'd still be making stuff up. I only describe what's actually really there, and what everything actually is like. You can't touch them, you can't feel them, and "what if" has no room in my image descriptions.

Besides, no, I don't know what unreal surfaces would feel like, also because they lack any and all properties of real-life surfaces.

And if I had to think up what literal dozens of different surfaces in one image feel like, it'd take me even longer to write my image descriptions. And it already takes me from several hours upward to describe one image.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #VirtualWorlds #A11y #Accessibility

James Edwards

@jupiter_rowland Yeah it would be making stuff up, but I mean (literally and figuratively speaking) -- all stuff is made up.

Does it matter if a description only amounts to "what if", if the alternative is no description at all?

The underlying question is about what might be useful for this group of users, but it seems to me that's slightly at odds with a desire for strict empirical accuracy.

So maybe the question is -- what's more important?

Jupiter Rowland

@James Edwards I would give an extensive, detailed, accurate truthful visual description anyway. "Extensive" as in "absolutely gargantuan like you wouldn't believe" as I always do for this kind of image.

I might add for deaf-blind users that nothing in the image is real, physical and tangible. But I guess they can figure it out themselves.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #DeafBlind #A11y #Accessibility

Jupiter Rowland

By the way: Here is a related essay on appropriate accessibility for deaf-blind people. It also mentions that they have no use for visual descriptions and audio transcripts; what matters to them is touch and scent.

#DeafBlind #A11y #Accessibility