Food for thought: Maybe the Fediverse should actually split.<br /><br />Leave Mastodon to its own devices.
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Food for thought: Maybe the Fediverse should actually split.
Leave Mastodon to its own devices. Leave them the term "Fediverse". Let Mastodon "be the Fediverse". Let "the Fediverse" and "the Mastodon network" be all the same. Just what absolutely every last newbie who came over from the Birdsite thought is the case. Just what many Mastodon users still think is the case. And exactly what not exactly few Mastodon users want the Fediverse to be.
Let Mastodon's many proprietary, non-standard, Mastodon-only solutions work perfectly with no interference from outside.
And leave Mastodon to be EEE'd by Threads.
Everything else could throw out all Mastodon-specific kluges and hacks and finally concentrate on pure standard ActivityPub plus FEPs. It could make full use of object types, regardless of how Mastodon renders them. It could introduce nomadic identity via ActivityPub without constantly having to check how well it works with Mastodon. It could implement a standard permissions system with no regard for how it'll work with Mastodon. For Mastodon will never implement anything they can't claim having invented themselves.
It could assume the name "Social Web" in the place of "Fediverse".
Its users could finally live the cultures of wherever they are and make use of the features available to them. They would longer have to deal with Mastodon users who try hard to force them to adopt the Mastodon culture and throw away the culture and most of the features of their home.
It could become acceptable for Social Web projects to introduce by-server-type filters and use them to block Mastodon as a whole. This could keep out the invaders who try to enforce their own foreign culture.
Such a step would also show which Fediverse projects are actually independent and which ones are nothing but add-ons bolted onto Mastodon. Because they will have to choose a side.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Fediverse #SocialWeb -
@jupiter_rowland With all due respect... that's rubbish. If you don't like it on Huzilla, you can deactivate AP. Problem solved. Otherwise, I expect the developer community to come to an agreement. If not, things will continue differently.
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@Matthias ⁂ I'm not speaking only for myself. I'm speaking for non-Mastodon Fediverse users all over the place from Pleroma to Iceshrimp to Friendica to Hubzilla.
If you're on something that's sufficiently not Hubzilla, and you've got connections to Mastodon in some way, chances are you've had run-ins with Mastodon users who neither know nor care that the Fediverse extends beyond Mastodon.
Mastodon users who want to force e.g. Friendica users to fully adopt Mastodon's culture and throw away Friendica's culture which includes abstaining from using any Friendica features that Mastodon doesn't have. Just like European settlers forcing natives to forget their own native cultures and adopt European culture and convert to Catholic Christianity instead.
Mastodon users who, upon discovering there are non-Mastodon places in the Fediverse, want to make the whole Fediverse only Mastodon, not by defederating from non-Mastodon instances, but by nagging and forcing everything that isn't Mastodon to mutate into Mastodon itself.
Mastodon users for whom only Mastodon and the way Mastodon does things (or whether it does things at all) is the one and only Fediverse gold standard, and everything that deviates from this gold standard is broken and wrong and must be corrected, by force if necessary.
I know I'm not the only one who has ever experienced such people. I know a (streams) forum that actually has intentionally turned ActivityPub off, and I know that this kind of Mastodon users is the reason.
I myself will leave ActivityPub on.
I was only giving some food for thought.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Fediverse -
@jupiter_rowland friendica, same as hubzilla, dedicate themself to integrate other decentralized projects so I can't see the divorce strategy.
In any case, same as with the diaspora*, there should or could be a extra option to activate mastodon specific derivations of the activityPub protocol I guess.
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@utopiArte I wasn't only posting this with raw technology in mind. I was also thinking about cultural differences that arose from the technological differences.
Friendica and Hubzilla are technologically very different from Mastodon. Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) users are rather used to that. They try to cope with it the best they can, although this alone brings its own bunch of issues with itself.
Mastodon users, on the other hand, are not used to it. Many of them have come to Mastodon from Twitter over the last two years, believing that Mastodon is only one Web site. And pretty much all of them, every last one of them, came to Mastodon, believing that the Fediverse that everyone talks about is Mastodon. And nothing else.
Those who have invited them to Mastodon have not told them that Mastodon is connected to things that aren't Mastodon, much less that Mastodon is connected to things that are very much not Mastodon.
Nearly all Twitter refugees on Mastodon have spent their first several months on Mastodon in this belief. They've settled into and gotten used to a Fediverse that's only Mastodon.
Many, not all of them, but many have since found out that there are things in the Fediverse that are very different from Mastodon. For not exactly few, it was a disturbing, if not outright traumatising experience to see that some Fediverse users can post over 500 characters at once. Or that some Fediverse users can easily "quote-toot" Mastodon toots, using something which is used on 𝕏 to harass members of marginalised minorities.
They didn't want that. They still don't want that. They want to make it go away again, so disturbing is it.
By and by, at least some Mastodon users face other differences between Mastodon on the one side and things like Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) on the other side. For example, what the way these three handle conversations means in practice for users of Mastodon which doesn't have a concept of conversations. Or that Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) users do not react when someone on Mastodon mentions them out of the blue. Everyone on Mastodon would notice it, so it's beyond a Mastodon user's comprehension that Friendica and Hubzilla users don't notice it by default.
So on the one hand, Mastodon users are increasingly stressed out by Friendica being Friendica and Hubzilla being Hubzilla. They ask themselves: "Why did they make everything so different from Mastodon? Why couldn't they have made it all just like Mastodon in the first place?"
It's incomprehensible to them that Friendica and Hubzilla were both made before Mastodon. For how can something in the Fediverse possible pre-date Eugen Rochko's invention of the Fediverse? It's also incomprehensible to them that something in the Fediverse can be something else than a Twitter clone. Or they simply don't know how Facebook, which Friendica aims to be an alternative to, works differently from Twitter as well.
On the other hand, Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) users are increasingly stressed out by Mastodon users trying to force Mastodon's culture upon them, along with Mastodon's limitations. Not few Mastodon users try to make Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) behave more like Mastodon by putting pressure on their users to a) always do everything the Mastodon way and b) stop making use of features that Mastodon doesn't have.
If you've never come across a Mastodon user complaining about a post or comment of yours being too long because you've exceeded the holy limit of 500 characters, then I'm very certain that you will.
Food for thought: This entire conflict would disappear with a split. Mastodon users would be spared from utterly non-Mastodon things. And non-Mastodon uers would be spared from demands to stop making use of 90% of all features they have at hand just because Mastodon doesn't have them.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #CharacterLimit #CharacterLimits #500Characters #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate -
What you're describing sounds a lot like the island network that already exists.
https://writer.oliphant.social/oliphant/islands-an-opt-in-federated-network -
@moggie With five differences, however.
One, it wouldn't encompass a select few Mastodon instances. It would likely encompass all instances of several non-Mastodon Fediverse projects.
Two, it wouldn't be based on allowing. It would be based on blocking.
Three, it wouldn't be based on handling instances. It would be based on handling one entire project. One flick of a switch, and tens of thousands of Mastodon instances, all Mastodon instances that exist and all that are yet to come, would be out, just because they're Mastodon.
Four, it wouldn't be "if you don't defederate from Mastodon, we'll block you" watertight.
Five, in theory, if this went all the way, both sides would profit, not only one.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Fediverse
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