Actually, no, you know what?

Steph (they/them)

@aud as a high school dropout with a fucking PhD I just yelled OH FUCK RIGHT OFF at my screen

FUCK this company, if I knew NOTHING else about them I would not be applying based on this bullshit ALONE

Asta [AMP]

How did you perform in mathematics at high school?

So. High school math. For one, despite the strong association of programming and math, they're not the same field. Second, unless you're a recent graduate, they could be asking about a class you took 20, 40, etc, years ago. This position is not a math position; how is this relevant? Indeed, and the metric is not unbiased:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0742051X22002001#sec4

Teachers with more equal expectations of male and female students displayed less gender bias in grading. Teachers who differed in their expectations of male and female students displayed more grading bias against both male and female students, despite the equal quality of their tests. Our finding confirmed previous research that demonstrated that the extent to which a person distinguishes between males and females based on generalized preconceptions is related to their discriminative behaviors against males and females (e.g., Burgess & Borgida, 1999; Dasgupta, 2004), and that different expectations can lead to different assessments (Muntoni & Retelsdorf, 2018; Powell, 1986).

So: a potentially very old metric that has some degree of gender bias; what about ethnicity?

https://www.edweek.org/leadership/in-math-teachers-unconscious-biases-may-be-more-subtle-than-you-think/2019/12

The results suggest that gender and racial stereotypes in math can make it harder for girls and students of color to be respected and challenged in math even when they perform well. Prior research has found that lower teacher expectations and less teacher optimism about a student can create a self-fulfilling prophesy for students, who disengage over time.

Not to mention: they asked me for a transcript last time. You know what that transcript contains? My age, birth name, etc. So they're selecting a biased metric and possibly one that contains a lot of information they can't legally ask about.

But it'd be one thing if this was a position that required fundamental math skills on a certain level... but critically it does not. And even if it did, it does not select for your current math skill at all, but instead your ranking in math at a previous point in your life. How is that relevant?

2/N

Les Orchard

@aud Hah, yeah, I think I bounced off a few Canonical jobs over the years when I saw those questions. Looks to be standard for all their postings

Asta [AMP]

The next question:

How did you perform in your native language at high school?

This has all the same problems as the above question, except that while it might seem relevant to the position (communication is important, after all!) there's nothing this question could theoretically give you that literally talking to the candidate would not. How is a third party assessment of native language ability from X years ago relevant to how well one might package and write HPC software?

3/N

d@nny "disc@" mc²

@aud uk might have different discrimination laws or lack thereof

Asta [AMP]

The followup!

Please share your rationale or evidence for the high school performance selections above. Make reference to provincial, state or nation-wide scoring systems, rankings, or recognition awards, or to competitive or selective college entrance results such as SAT or ACT scores, JAMB, matriculation results, IB results etc. We recognise every system is different but we will ask you to justify your selections above. *

Oh ho hooooo now we're getting directly into it: we are specifically asking for rankings relative to the other students at the time. So not only have we selected metrics which may well be biased (and irrelevant!) but we're now specifically asking them to be rated against the other favorable or unfavorable biases of the system that produced them! Grades, awards, etc, may well have a degree of correlation with how well a student has performed but are absolutely subject to the bias of the committees/teachers/etc. Even the SAT/ACT scores are only valid within the year they are given, as it's a weighted scale and not meant to be compared across years (they are meant to compare students within a year only). In addition, there's a lot of criticism around the bias in these tests: https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/racist-beginnings-standardized-testing

So now they are specifically asking for an uncontrolled, bias laden metric and for you to justify your own score. For a job writing Python. For a test you took potentially many, many, many years ago that likely has little bearing on who you are today.

4/N

Asta [AMP]

What was your bachelor's university degree result, or expected result if you have not yet graduated? Please include the grading system to help us understand your result e.g. ‘85 out of 100’, ‘2:1 (Grading system: first class, 2:1, 2:2, third class)’ or ‘GPA score of 3.8/4.0 (predicted)’. We have hired outstanding individuals who did not attend or complete university. If this describes you, please continue with your application and enter ‘no degree’. *

Universities around the world score degrees in different ways. Please indicate your result, or expected result if you are close to graduation, along with information about the grading system.

This one is basically the same set of problems as the above, except now they throw the insulting bit about outstanding individuals who did not attend or complete university. I dunno where to even start with this one.

5/N

Asta [AMP]

I applied to them last year and made it clear that I had not graduated high school. I did not think this was a problem until I had gone through nearly two months of interviews, an 18 page essay, spatial geometry and logic tests (oh boy, that's a whole fucking dissertation of bias right there) that I had passed... until I finally got to actually talk to the person who would be my manager. Who, the interview seemed to go reasonably well, until he said he really needed my high school transcripts. The ones that did not exist because I, a queer kid who was bordering on being homeless and was neglected, underfed, underclothed, and emotionally manipulated, did not graduate high school. I only ate when I was a teenager because I got a job. I had very little clothing (we lost the house shortly after I turned 18 and I had to go live with relatives for a year or two) and was often cold because we didn't have heat or hot water or gas.

I did later go to college and graduate school. Not only is that where I learned the technical skills I use in my career, I've also had a good 5 years of experience since then and now that makes me a potential candidate for these positions.

Perhaps those questions would have been relevant earlier (doubtful), but my inability to complete high school was not a predictor of my future success, and in fact I've learned so many skills from open source that have helped my career that... the idea that they have formally shut the gates and patted themselves on the back for it sickens me. There's no reason to ask these detailed questions and it only gives them information that calls to mind potential bias in hiring.

End/N

Asta [AMP]

@[email protected] It's absolutely true, but this IS for a US based position so they have to follow the law here.

Asta [AMP]

@[email protected] Oh, it is. And I'm fucking mad as hell about it.

Asta [AMP]

@[email protected] THIS THIS THIS THIS

As a high school dropout I have really fucking strong feelings about this. Hey, did you know, at least during the 90s and 2000s, queer kids were WAY more likely to drop out of high school? (I don't have the paper but it's Bart, M. (1998, September). Creating a safer school for gay students. Counseling Today, 26, 36-39). 3 times higher, in fact!

brennen

@aud canonical is notorious for this specific flavor of bullshit, to the extent that i glanced at the image of the questions first and then went "oh this has to be a canonical thing".

Asta [AMP]

@[email protected] Oh, it is. I'm not a lawyer so I certainly can't interpret the law (although personally if I was hiring someone I'd try not to ask questions that aren't directly related to the role, and I'm assume any questions about performance that weren't within the last few years were unrelated in general) but they are, at the very least, ageist, ableist horseshit questions and they really... really piss me off. And I hate that they're continuing to do it.

I have heard so many stories of people who have gone through their bullshit and then been turned down for no real reason and interestingly enough, it's all been women, queers, POC... none of which seemed to be on any of the teams I interviewed with, for the record.

Steph (they/them)

@aud I'm so angry with these fuckers I want to storm their HQ with every other queer or otherwise marginalised high school dropout who pulled their shit together later in life DESPITE the indifference and outright hostility they faced at every corner and is therefore far more resilient and interesting and capable than any mayonnaise high-school high performer this question panders to... and kick every single one of their windows in.

we've all got big stompy boots, I assume.

Asta [AMP]

"why don't more minorities and women work in tech", no one is asking, because they like that it's a "dominant ethnic and social majority" boy's club.

Canonical seriously needs to be looked into for this shit. It's riddled with bias and it wastes the time of the people who are usually more often unemployed in tech: minorities! Nothing like getting your hopes up because you have no choice but to follow the interview chain wherever it leads only to be turned down for vague reasons.

#canonical #foss #openSource #sexism #bigotry

Asta [AMP]

@[email protected] ohhhhhh do I ever have big stompy boots.

Captain Superfluous

@aud

Second, unless you're a recent graduate, they could be asking about a class you took 20, 40, etc, years ago.

Only young people need apply. Olds are not welcome.

Oops - I said the quiet part out loud again.

Captain Superfluous

@aud

bordering on being homeless and was neglected, underfed, underclothed, and emotionally manipulated, did not graduate high school.

Ah, see - there's the problem. You didn't choose to be born into wealth and stability. You foolishly chose to have trauma and abuse and poverty instead.

I should have said before, only young people from financially/relationally stable backgrounds need apply.

No one else matters or could possibly be good at this job.

Ben Berry

@aud wait until you get to the test that's definitely not a dyslexia test, but also not *not* a dyslexia test.

Asta [AMP]

@[email protected] oooooooooh I DID. And you know what I did? I fucking passed it ANYWAY despite almost certainly being dyslexic. Those fuckers.