Lots of great updates in the latest Mastodon release, but I am particularly excited about this.

Stefan Bohacek

"The median user *can* pay"

I mean that's a bold claim.

- https://archive.ph/kIDuV
- https://www.cnbc.com/2024/05/20/americans-are-going-into-debt-to-buy-groceries-research-finds.html

Yes, this is cherry-picked, and just for the US, but I'd like to see some evidence for your statement.

Stefan Bohacek

@raphael @Alien_Sunset @deadsuperhero Regardless, I do agree with you on the importance of supporting all the work and paying for all the resources to keep fediverse, and FOSS in general, sustainable.

But there must be better ways. Setting up non-profits, applying for grants, I don't know. Not really my area of expertise. We have to get creative.

Raphael Lullis

@stefan @Alien_Sunset @deadsuperhero

Netflix has 60+ million subscribers in the US. Disney has 50+ million in the US and Canada.

If the *median* American can afford to pay billions of dollars per year for entertainment, they can afford to pay a few million per year for the development of the Commons.

Stefan Bohacek

@raphael @Alien_Sunset @deadsuperhero Right, and the math should add up, but the current state of things is a proof that it doesn't?

Look at how many people were willing to pay for Twitter Blue when it was announced. I wonder what the numbers look like now that they're paywalling more and more of the site's features.

Stefan Bohacek

@raphael @Alien_Sunset @deadsuperhero It just seems like, asking people to pay for things that they've been used to getting for free for so long is an uphill battle, with most seemingly willing to compromise for a subpar experience, or seek out free alternatives.

Or just get left out from the public discourse.

Raphael Lullis

@stefan @Alien_Sunset @deadsuperhero

We can not use Twitter Blue conversion rates or anything else based on the "freemium" model if the comparison is against a service that does not have a free tier, but we can prove that Americans (on average) do pay for services when they can not get it for free.

Stefan Bohacek

@raphael @Alien_Sunset @deadsuperhero Right. And fair enough.

Tom Casavant

@stefan @raphael @deadsuperhero Are there any servers out there with an ad-supported model right now?

I've got nothing against it, and maybe it's because I have no frame of reference for how profitable any sort of ad is in 2024- but do non-invasive/non-targeted ads actually make a reasonable amount of money?

Stefan Bohacek

@tom @raphael @deadsuperhero I don't know about any.

I know that https://500.social is one example of a paid instance, but that's done via Patreon.

Alien_Sunset

@raphael @stefan @deadsuperhero

Using a predatory practice as an example of something to aim for or to prove that people being forced to pay for one service can ‘obviously’ pay for *another* service on top of it is not as convincing as you think

Alien_Sunset

@raphael @stefan @deadsuperhero

Well, yeah, but once again, paywalling such a necessary thing like social media seems kinda … sleezy, yeah, the people who can afford it will pay, and so will a portion of people who technically *cant* afford it but still need it, and… what? The rest can go wither and die? (Hyperbolic, yes, but my point stands)

Raphael Lullis

@Alien_Sunset @stefan @deadsuperhero

What is predatory about streaming services?

You have the full right to not like them, but to claim that people are simply paying out of coercion is absurd. When piracy is still an alternative (and arguably even morally justified), it's hard not to see how people pay for these services because they value their convenience above all else.

Raphael Lullis

@Alien_Sunset @stefan @deadsuperhero

> people who technically *cant* afford it but still need it, and… what?

Then we will have a secondary market which is not super attractive for the Surveillance Capitalism corporations and that can be served by secondary players: local libraries, schools... and yes, even ad-supported businesses, like a regional newspaper.

Alien_Sunset

@raphael @stefan @deadsuperhero

Library run social media sites? SCHOOL run social media sites? On the tiny assed budgets that they are already forced to work with?

Are you on crack?

Alien_Sunset

@raphael @stefan @deadsuperhero

Although it does raise an interesting possibility… socialised social media, much like healthcare is necessary for physical health and should also be something funded by everyone and managed by an “impartial” entity rather than one focused on profits perhaps social media should go a similar route….
1/?

Alien_Sunset

@raphael @stefan @deadsuperhero

There are several cities and iirc entire counties that have govt run internet providers (being a public necessity now adays, much like heat/power and water)

Could something similar work with say, government funding/grants for development and maintenance of activity pub services?

Stefan Bohacek

@Alien_Sunset @raphael @deadsuperhero I'd be more than happy for my taxes to go towards that!

Raphael Lullis

@Alien_Sunset @stefan @deadsuperhero

I think we can keep a healthy conversation without resorting to name calling.

And yes, I think that small *local* governments should be the ones with the responsibility to provide these services. If anything, it could work as a spotlight to them and strengthen their communities, and the federation model works extraordinarily well for that, it could even help for extra fundraising efforts.

Alien_Sunset

@raphael @stefan @deadsuperhero

While I just made a mini thread hypothesizing about government run activity pub.
I think that you don’t have a very good idea of how knowledge and resource poor most *local* small governments are. Something on the library or school level 100% could not run something like this. It would need to be on a much larger scale - state level at least, and it would HAVE to be well budgeted and overseen/regulated

Raphael Lullis

@Alien_Sunset @stefan @deadsuperhero

You know what would be even worse than an Internet controlled by a handful of corporations? An Internet that is controlled by a large and powerful state.

I know how poorly funded these community services are, but wouldn't it be fair to say that the reason that they are so poorly funded is because they became synonymous with "something that only poor/destitute people use"?