Minutes from 5 December 2024 WG Meeting

[julian]

The full minutes from the Forum and Threaded Discussions Task Force monthly meeting (held on 5 December) can be found at this Google Docs link

The minutes are also inline below.

Apologies in advance if I misrepresented anybody or missed any crucial bits of information.

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December 2024 Minutes

Forum and Threaded Discussions Task Force

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Housekeeping

• Julian noted that the event description in the SWICG calendar calls for a monthly meeting from 1700 to 1800 UTC, although the scheduled time is pegged to 1300 to 1400 Eastern Time (observing DST).
  • Dmitri (absent from meeting) to update event description

as:Article and Mastodon treatment of non-notes

• Darius provided an update – been under the weather and busy with some other work-related items, but:
  • Mastodon team cautiously optimistic about upstream PR, some concerns were voiced over things like inline images
  • Hopefully by next month will have something more concrete to show to them; re: demo package
  • Evan (@[email protected]) planning to get some people together in-person, to work together at FOSDEM in Brussels (Feb 2025); specifically to address long-form text issue
  • Discussions about this in the task force would be considered the crucial pre-work
  • Darius will update the group if something happens before January (re: code or PR package)
  • A test instance up and running, Darius plans to make it more accessible for others to check out

Silverpill’s FEP 171b is now an official draft, open for comments on SocialHub

• No specifics, just a news item.

Context collections FEP Convergence

• Rationale for recommendation outlined in meeting agenda.
• Evan (@[email protected]) and a (@[email protected]) met up just prior to the WG meeting to discuss and work out differences between their FEPs; main notes:
  • Using context to represent a reply tree is good
  • Restricting usage of context is not the goal of 7888 or the ForumWG
  • Co-exists well with 76ea’s thr:thread property to denote a reply tree, etc.
  • Recommending use of as:context is one good way forward
  • Evan recommends that the “should” in the proposal be changed to a “may”
• PROPOSAL: Publishers SHOULD use `context` for grouping related objects in a thread (but this is not the only way to use context).
  • RESOLVED with 8 ayes, no nays, and no abstentions

Brainstorming focus items for 2025

• Emelia (@[email protected]) – multiple contexts?
  • a (@[email protected]) : we need to also handle the fact that some contexts may not resolve
  • Emelia: as:context can be an array of values in JSON-LD
  • a: inReplyTo can have multiple values too; but in general, on the producing side we generate a single value – generally expect context/thread to remain the same (singular values)
  • Sebi: "we thought a lot about multiple contexts" - led us to the conclusion of using profiles/describes property; per spec can only have one value
• Julian: Handling when implementors (e.g. lemmy/piefed) don't have the concept of topics
  • a: there are multiple different models of how items are grouped together; reply tree model works for large part of the fediverse; mastodon has concept of reply tree represented internally as a conversation (vs context); this could be expanded into a conversation having an owner, etc.; mastodon has the conceptual ground to build upon
  • Evan: reply trees work well on microblogs, blog comment trees, threaded posting systems, forums; other applications expect a more serial model... messenger/chat systems, where ordering of objects is not in a tree, no explicit relation between them; hashtags, locations, few other ways to use context
  • Emelia: clarify overlap between replies collection and context collection?
  • a: in general will include both ancestors and descendants; could add filters, look at tags, etc. to get subsets. If you are querying by context, you are looking for all objects related by said context
  • Evan: full tree
• Julian: Mastodon reply-tree service proposed (https://github.com/NeuromatchAcademy/mastodon/pull/44)
  • Julian: worried about scalability and performance of a backend service iterating through an entire reply tree; advocates that retrieving as:context is more performant especially if we build in some tooling for synchronization and member checking
• Emelia: historical reports of harassment due to `inReplyTo`; when looking at context including descendents, then how do we generate the tree?
  • Evan: fep 76ea goes into detail about how reply trees can be managed
  • a: answer is "who has the authority?"; who decides what goes into the collection? the `attributedTo` actor. For the replies collection, this exists IN PARALLEL TO `context`; in some ways a subset of the thread; could be a point of contention for systems that expect all objects to exist in general vs. conversation oriented
  • Julian: upends expectation that objects are independent
  • Darius: does this relate to announce leaking? recommendations that you not forward the entire object, just the ids
    • Emelia: related but different; announce leaking -- should only ever do objects by ref (by the id)
  • a: the paradigm shift is more social rather than technical -- that you cannot just rely on inReplyTo to prove that an object is approved
    • some duplication as context includes replies, but they are distinct collections. They are decided by different authorities. `replies` is decided by whoever wrote the post
• Ted (@[email protected]): This sounds a lot like reinventing netnews, without taking the lessons that were learned from it; blurring the ideas of message store/relay/display; for all of this to work, the system has to pick up all replies, and let the client filter.
  • Julian/a: anything specific to share? lessons, etc. – definitely of interest in not repeating the same mistakes