@[email protected] slightly ahead of you there https://community.nodebb.org/topic/18010/adding-forum-task-force-calls-to-the-calendar
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Minutes from 2 May 2024 WG Meeting -
Minutes from 2 May 2024 WG Meeting@[email protected] Let me add you to the list-of-people-to-mention whenever something is scheduled
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Minutes from 2 May 2024 WG MeetingPlease see below for minutes from today's Forum and Threaded Discussions Task Force monthly meeting.
Apologies in advance if I misrepresented anybody or missed any crucial bits of information
Participants
in order of appearance
- Dmitri, @[email protected]
- Angus, @[email protected]
- Julian, @[email protected]
- Rimu, @[email protected]
- Evan, @[email protected]
- Mattias, @[email protected]
- Emelia: @[email protected]
- a: @[email protected]
- Dmitri invited participants to the regular SWICG call tomorrow; best place to be informed of upcoming events: SocialCG calendar — "please come by, it is free for everyone to join or listen in"
- Angus provided an update to the working group's inclusion under the banner of the Social Web Incubator Community Group (SWICG), revised name would be the Forums and Threaded Discussions Task Force, or "ForumWG" for short.
- Julian provided an update on this past month's usage of the fediverse to hold asynchronous discussion, a number of threads have been started on the respective forum categories (both of which federate out) for the working group pertaining to discussions re: agenda items, and have been fairly well received.
- Angus and Julian will update the respective handles of their categories to reflect the new working group name
"Lay of the Land" survey reports
- Angus: The general spirit of these surveys is 'these are the existing X approaches, the plurality may indicate the need to converge'
- Nomenclature
- Rimu: Document continues to be expanded upon
- Evan re-iterates that it is unlikely any implementors will change their nomenclature to match
- Angus asks whether participants find utility in the list
- Evan indicates that whatever is decided upon is best used "on-the-wire", Julian agrees and notes that the agreed-upon terminology would be used in the "Definitions" portion of any report written by ForumWG; suggests the list may be best kept as a living reference
- Rimu indicates that as the list grows, alternative ways to represent the data may be required
- Round of applause for Rimu for taking the initiative to start (and now maintain) the list
- Object Type (Article vs. Note vs. Page)
- Impetus for topic: WordPress sending out
as:Note
whenas:Article
would be more suitable- @[email protected] (in topic, paraphrased): Mastodon values microblogging UX and locked down their allowed html to satisfy this constraint, despite Hubzilla's pleas
- @[email protected] (in topic, paraphrased): Raised issue in 2017 to address issues with inline images being removed. Suggested a compromise: treat Article and Note differently (Note, text only with attachments; Article, full HTML) — Eugen 7 months later closed issue with change to further hamper treatment of Article, by showing only title and link back to source.
- @[email protected] (in topic): "You can choose 'Note' if you want to have the best compatibility"
- Evan: Whether a note or article is federated, it shouldn't hamper implementation; but
as:Page
should not be used - Mattias: Choice is given to user as to how WP maps the native Post object to ActivityPub. Historically sent out
Article
but received a lot of pushback from early adopters. Difficult to reconcile UX with technical limitations - Evan: "An
as:Note
is a Tweet (we just couldn't call it that), anas:Article
is a blog post" - Emelia: "Should software publish different objects based on content length, even if using the same mechanism?"
- a: Big picture view — it doesn't seem complicated, but it is, because the line between them is completely arbitrary.
- Mattias: We try to autodetect (no headers, content length, etc.), would prefer different content types based on what users write, but the advantage is being able to read content natively on the user's platform of choice
- Dmitri: "I think we've got several questions in parallel:
- What SHOULD these things (Note & Article) be used for.
- What to do about Mastodon who only seems to consume Notes."
- Emelia: Don't Articles usually have titles?
- Everyone else: crickets (made us think!)
- a: https://wiki.trwnh.com/tech/spec/activitypub/confusion/note-vs-article/ (also indicates using title to discriminate Article vs. Post isn't 100%)
- a: The reason we're talking about this is because of various differring implementations - for example, in one implementor's mental model, you have a thread with a title and that is separate from the posts contained within; posts that may also have titles of their own. How do we reconcile this?
- Julian and Rimu note that @[email protected] replied in-topic: "... we would like to improve how non-Note objects are processed/displayed in Mastodon."
- Julian mentions a compromise put forth by @[email protected] where Notes are smaller pieces of content with limited markup and attachments, and Articles are (sometimes) larger pieces with formatting, inline images. Additional survey/spreadsheet to be created, but we could as a group (Mastodon included) converge on a path forward and a report to the SocialCG could be authored. To be continued next month.
- Impetus for topic: WordPress sending out
- Group Actor characteristics
- 1b12 - announcing the activities of their actors, this is what Discourse and NodeBB do, other implementations have taken this approach
- @[email protected] (paraphrased): "intent of 1b12 is to describe the existing status quo"
- 400e - Pubicly appendable collections; Picked up by a few other folks, also potentially Mastodon (with their new groups implementation)
- How do we treat group actors in forum/threaded implementations?
- a: 400e - Groups send Add activities, 1b12 - Groups send Announce activities, otherwise, a Group could even send regular Creates (editor's note: this is a dramatic simplication of the actual post here)
- Evan: announce style makes the most sense, understanding that folks use both - suggestion: document both but let consumers know they'll see one or both
- Rimu: Implementors can make opinionated decisions on how it should work, and adjust based on the reality of how the major players adopt
- Angus will continue collating responses into a spreadsheet re: group implementations
- Open item: feedback on desired UX (@[email protected])
- Can a group be multiple different things? e.g. a context/thread has some recipients, a context could be an actor. How forums choose to (or could) represent these relationships via ActivityPub is what is currently being solicited
- a: Boils down to "Collections, please use them", but best to start foundationally: Notes in Collections, first.
- Due to lack of time discussion of this will take place asynchronously on the fediverse: https://community.nodebb.org/post/99491 (if this does not open in your client, paste it into the search box)
- Julian provided one user story: "If you want to share a context to others, one should share the higher-ordered collection, and not what we do today, which is to share the url/object uri for OP."
- A suitable implementation could see that and backfill the entire context locally, and redirect the user to the first object.
- Angus noted that Discourse already has some support for Collections, will provide details async on forum topic (linked above)
Action Items
- @[email protected] and @[email protected] will update the respective handles of their categories to reflect the new working group name
- @[email protected] to collate responses to Article vs. Name among implementors, supply recommendation at next meeting.
- @[email protected] to collate responses re: Group federation among implementors, continue discussion next meeting
- @[email protected] to solicit feedback asynchronously via the fediverse
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May Meeting: May 2 1700 UTC@[email protected] Sorry to hear that! I will attempt to add our next meeting to the SWICG calendar, as well as send out additional notices.
In the meantime I have taken minutes and will share them once I have finished editing.
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Desired UX for forums, and accompanying user storiesUnfortunately during today's ForumWG call, we did not have enough time to fully discuss @[email protected]'s desire to solicit feedback regarding the Fediverse UX for forums.
The next best thing is to collect those user stories via the fediverse and discuss again at the next meeting, so here we are!
@[email protected] will start off the discussion with a reply here.
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Adding Forum Task Force calls to the calendarHey @[email protected], how can I add events to the SWICG calendar? I notice there's a little button to include "Task Forces" in the listing, so I think listing our meetings would be helpful, now that we've settled on a more consistent time/day-of-week.
cc @[email protected] (unrelatedly, do you get notified if I mention your SocialHub handle?)
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Article vs. Note vs. Page@[email protected] said in Article vs. Note vs. Page:
Since then WordPress has joined the Fediverse, and now Ghost is about to join as well. I think the ability to display rich content may soon become a serious competitive advantage.
Completely agreed. The best time to consider a different approach is now, so I am hoping we can make some headway here at the WG meeting. Stay tuned...
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You receive a call on your phone.The caller says they're from your bank and they're calling about a suspected fraud.@[email protected] in this example you can assume the notification came from the Chase application itself, the one installed on your phone.
For the sake of example you could also substitute this with an SMS 2FA, that is a similar attack vector.
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You receive a call on your phone.The caller says they're from your bank and they're calling about a suspected fraud.@[email protected] yup. You're on the line with the scammer, an accomplice is on the line with the bank.
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PWA push notifications@phenomlab a bundled solution would be using browser based push notifications, which are less reliable, unfortunately.
The existing desktop notifications plugin uses browser notifications
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PWA push notifications@phenomlab @danh @crazycells ok, will open source the code later today.
Firebase is just the backend platform/service. You'll be able to use it to send push notifications iOS on it now (hopefully)
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PWA push notifications@danh @crazycells Maybe? I have a 4 year old proof-of-concept plugin that made it to testing but then I just plain didn't work on Apple devices, so the plugin (a private one) was abandoned outright.
It's based off of firebase.
There are no licensing issues, so I can open-source it for review if need be, but I cannot guarantee that it'll even work.
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Pre-Alpha ActivityPub-related bug reports@bh4-tech That's because that counter is not a real counter
I have not yet worked on allow-list or deny-list filtering of servers.
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May Meeting: May 2 1700 UTCReminder: SWICG Forum/Threaded Discussions Working Group Meeting
Date & Time: 2 May 2024, 1700 to 1800 UTC
The primary focus of this upcoming WG meeting is to present the findings of several informal surveys (conducted via the fediverse):
- Nomenclature → A lingua franca for content organization | Shared Document
- Object type of OP → Article vs. Note vs. Page
- Group Actor Characteristics → How do we handle Groups (Reconciling FEP-400e and FEP-1b12)?
Additionally, @[email protected] wished to take the floor to solicit feedback from WG participants on desired UX related to higher ordered collections.
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Clustering on two machines@mutahar-ali You'd probably want to move the redis server to another machine in that case. Either a separate one, or on the same machine as the Mongo database.
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Questions for software engineers about estimates.@[email protected] for what it's worth I'm pretty bad at estimating. It drives @jay-moonah up the wall
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Questions for software engineers about estimates.@[email protected] story points make no fracking sense.
They make sense within the context of a team so long as the team is roughly aligned with how much a point is "worth", arbitrarily.
And then of course they loop in contractors and other teams that don't share the same point worthiness and suddenly are surprised when the estimates make no sense.
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Very happy to announce that @tomcoates and I have been given a #SummerOfProtocols grant to develop an end-to-end encryption (E2EE) protocol for #ActivityPub DMs, including a reference implementation and a report to submit to the W3C SocialCG.@[email protected] how would this work alongside posts that are addressed to specific people, would this be an opt-in replacement?
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New episode out today #fediverse #dotsocial #bluesky #mastodon #activitypubLooking forward to checking this out. Congrats @[email protected] !
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Slightly better titles from fediverse topics@[email protected] said in Slightly better titles from fediverse topics:
I like your method of stopping at the first '.', that would yield better results more often.
Thanks, it worked decently until I remembered that there were additional punctuation marks besides the lowly period.
So I had to add in support for
?
and!
, and update the logic to actually add those punctuation marks back in to the title.... and yet there are more edge cases... some bot accounts post a title-esque first line along with a link, which needs to be teased out.