Something about starter packs that I think gets lost when they're discussed on Mastodon:

Mr. Completely

@mastodonmigration @dave @ErickaSimone @ryanrandall it has a *fairly earned* reputation. Just to clarify, not that you said otherwise.

Lord Hurkle-Durkle :bc:

@mastodonmigration @dave @ErickaSimone @ryanrandall

Can we define what we mean by "hostile to black people"?

Are we talking about micro-aggressions, or are we talking about outright exclusion/racism?

*edit: For an example of toxic discourse, I encourage you to read the rest of these threads below and my interaction with others here.

If you do not want to help me understand, then I don't want to talk to you either. Block me all you want. But I will never learn anything if that's what you do.

GunChleoc

@engarneering There's @subclub trying to build a funding system for artists etc.

Of course, they immediately got dunked on by the "monetization == evil" folks.

I guess it's the same sort of people who will complain about mutual aid posts.

This type of dunking also has to stop. There's a difference between needing money to survive and being an adtech company juggling hatemongering surveillance algorithms.

@nullagent @mastodonmigration @ErickaSimone @ryanrandall

Robert Kingett

What are those ActivityPub projects because I'd love to point people to other projects than Mastodon. I know about Bookwyrm etc etc, Friendica, @dave @mastodonmigration @ErickaSimone @ryanrandall

Ryan Randall

@GuyDudeman (Taking other people off the list so their mentions don't get flooded.)

When I say "hostile", I mean all of the above! Mastodon's decentralization has counter-intuitive effects, after one is used to what happens on more centralized platforms.

For instance, there are a bunch of small, overtly racist / misogynist / etc instances that have amplified harassment campaigns against prominent Black people on here. If you're on a server with more proactive blocking, you'll never know about it, even though the targets certainly will if they're on a less actively-moderated instance.

For a lot more history, you might start by reading about Dr. Flowers' experience, one of many stories linked in https://privacy.thenexus.today/start-making-the-fediverse-less-toxic/ by @thenexusofprivacy

The Nexus of Privacy

Thanks for the tag! And yes, it's both. Flowers and Mekka both talk about "HOA racism", the more casual stuff including micro-aggressions ... there are bunch of examples in my post.

In a lot of ways the hard-core harassment from bad instances is easier to deal with -- instance-level blocking has its downsides but is great for this use case. But there are other instances that have a pattern of racist behavior that aren't widely blocked.

@ryanrandall @GuyDudeman

Víctor R. Ruiz

@mttaggart @kims @mekkaokereke @ecosdelfuturo It’s pretty obvious to me that the Fediverse needs a more welcoming alternative. Maybe a Mastodon fork with a different set of developers that are more open to contributions (OpenOffice vs LibreOffice comes to my mind). But, of course, who has the time and resources to do that is the major issue.

Lord Hurkle-Durkle :bc:

@thenexusofprivacy @ryanrandall

"there are a bunch of small, overtly racist / misogynist / etc instances that have amplified harassment campaigns against prominent Black people on here."

Maybe that's it. I've only ever been on Mastodon.social and beige.party really, and haven't seen the kinds of attacks that you're talking about, probably because of good moderation.

So really it's more of a moderation problem than anything, I would suppose.

Because even in real life, there are racists, but they typically moderate themselves at the grocery stores, whereas online they can let their true feelings and opinions fly, without regard to seeing the other person as a person.

I appreciate the link. I'll give it a read.

Lord Hurkle-Durkle :bc:

@thenexusofprivacy @ryanrandall

I also want to say that we should absolutely be blocking whole instances if they're allowing even one problematic account on them. Make it a bigger punishment and I think there will be less tolerance and more moderation? Maybe?

Dave Alvarado

@GuyDudeman @mastodonmigration @ErickaSimone @ryanrandall those are the same thing.

Lord Hurkle-Durkle :bc:

@dave @mastodonmigration @ErickaSimone @ryanrandall

I really feel that unintentional things that people do should be classified into a different category than intentional actions and words.

I don't blame the ignorant for their ignorance. I blame society for not teaching them.

Taggart :donor:

@vrruiz @kims @mekkaokereke @ecosdelfuturo Perhaps a fork run by an organization that has a paid Trust and Safety team for moderation, with clear terms and conditions. Maybe even a legal entity that can be sued for breach of contract to address harms.

I'm being cheeky, but if you want to fix Fedi, professionalize it.

The Nexus of Privacy

In general, yes, instance blocking can help encourage better moderation. But it's complex: instance blocking cuts communication between everybody on both instances, so especially for larger instances a lot of people who aren't behaving badly pay the price. mastodon.social is an extreme example of this -- not particularly well moderated (which isn't the moderators' fault, it's Eugen who's made the decision not to put enough resources into moderation and still keep it as open sigup, but still) so the source of a fair number of problems, but still a big loss to connectivity if you defederate.

(Also I think it's critical not to view instance blocking as punishment, it's really about safety and asserting boundaries. But that's a digression.)

@GuyDudeman @ryanrandall

Lord Hurkle-Durkle :bc:

@dave @mastodonmigration @ErickaSimone @ryanrandall

To expand on this thought - I've encountered people telling me that asking what I did wrong is a micro-aggression.

Like, I get that people are tired of being asked, but at least they're being asked. That shows that someone wants to do better and doesn't have ill-intent.

I think ill-intent is a very different thing from ignorance.

My kids don't know right from wrong until they're taught.

We have to teach people for them to learn. We can't just attack them and expel them, if they want to learn and discuss calmly and politely.

Lord Hurkle-Durkle :bc:

@thenexusofprivacy @ryanrandall

"especially for larger instances a lot of people who aren't behaving badly pay the price"

That would be the point. It would make those like me, who are unaware of these issues - aware of the issue straight away, and force the problem instances members and moderators to do something about it to fix the issue - prove that it's fixed or mitigated as best they can, and only then get re-federated.

Jon

GoToSocial and Letterbook, as well as Bonfire, are all examples of projects that are taking inclusivity and pro-social behavior seriously. GoToSocial also takes significantly less resources to run than Mastodon. It's a great point from @[email protected] about the barrier that Mastodon's expensiveness adds -- and this is also very much something Letterbook's keeping in mind.

@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]

Jon

This post is deleted!

Jon

I agree with @[email protected]'s perspecties in https://hachyderm.io/@jenniferplusplus/113550897068984768: Letterbook, Bonfire, and GoToSocial are three good examples. Today, GoToSocial is the best option for most small instances (although it's still in beta, and doesn't have all of Mastodon's functionality -- no post editing, you can't subscribe to relays, and minimal moderation tools). K&T hosting has a $3.75/month package, or people with basic Linux skills can use a small VPS -- I've got it on a digital ocean droplet, and the installation instructions were straightforward. It seems to work okay with Enafore (although I've only tried the basics -- home feed and notifications)

Letterbook is at an earlier stage. Bonfire is very flexible and it could well make sense for more complex proejcts, but I don't know anybody who's self-hosting on it yet.

@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]

Dave Alvarado

@GuyDudeman @mastodonmigration @ErickaSimone @ryanrandall I appreciate that you're trying to separate two classes of racism to make one ok, but I can't really help you with that. Racism is like cancer. Yes, there are more and less pernicious forms, but you still have cancer if you have any kind of cancer.

Microaggressions don't happen without the underlying intentional or unintentional bigotry. People just don't treat each other that way unless they have internalized some sort of superiority

Zack Cerza

@mekkaokereke BlueSky is a really fun place to be, and to me it's clear BlackSky is a large part of the reason. Part of why BlackSky is able to work so well is that the community is actually able to defend itself thanks to the agency granted by the platform's composable moderation features.

Not only does Mastodon not have similar features, it seems like ActivityPub itself is an obstacle to adding them. And the community here can be so damn condescending to people who have any feedback.