CEO of Meta, which recently joined the newly founded #SocialWebFoundation, suggests that there is "no causal connection" between social media and teen mental health.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Stefan Bohacek last edited by [email protected]
@stefan so, I think what you're saying is that you think some people and instances will federate, and that's kind of up to them, but influence of Meta on the Fediverse is a red line.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@stefan so, let's flip this idea around. With hundreds of millions of users each, Threads and Flipboard represent the vast majority of Fediverse users. The rest of us are a rounding error in that calculation.
Maintaining a connection to that big network is not guaranteed. There's no reason a group of ActivityPub implementers couldn't go to allowlist mode and just federate with the handful of services that make up the majority of user accounts on the network.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@stefan keeping that majority of the network available to all who want to connect means enshrining Fediverse values of openness into institutions that influence the network -- like, say, a nonprofit.
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Stefan Bohacekreplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@evan Yes, this is precisely my stance.
And I really can't think of much that they could do at this point, as a company, for me to ever trust their intentions with the fediverse.
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@stefan @evan @wendinoakland fwiw I don’t think there’s a credible path of non-engagement as long as hundreds of millions of well-intentioned users are involved. We have to pursue harm reduction for them even as we push to hold meta accountable; if we follow the analogy of email or podcasts, there are absolutely vendors in both those spaces profiteering grom fascism. Yet we need those formats to be open.
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Stefan Bohacekreplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@evan Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but are you suggesting that not allowing Meta to be part of SWF or being allowed to influence the ActivityPub spec, and other parts of the fediverse, might result in them either giving up on integrating AP in Threads, or not federating with certain servers in retaliation?
If so, that would be a fair point, but then that also suggests that they're free to do whatever they want, with our community not standing up.
Then they already won.
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@[email protected] @[email protected] I read this more of "You can choose not to federate with them but you'll be isolated from the rest of the network".
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@puppygirlhornypost2 @evan Right, and that's fair, I suppose. But my bigger issue is still having them as members of SWF.
Like I said in another reply, I am open to federating with their servers, but I don't want them to steer the whole network in the wrong direction.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Stefan Bohacek last edited by
@stefan I am saying that I would prefer to use whatever influence I have to guide the future of the social web to be open and accessible to individual/independent instances.
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Stefan Bohacekreplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@evan Fair enough.
And sorry to put you on the spot like this, but let me ask you, is there anything Meta, or their leadership could do that would warrant their expulsion from SWF?
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@stefan so, when we say "influence on the network" here, I don't think you mean that there would be no impact whatsoever of having Threads implement ActivityPub, right?
That seems unlikely. Every node on the network has an impact on the network, at the technical and human level, however small.
I think what you're saying is that you don't want them to have any influence on the ActivityPub standard itself?
And I want to check: do you mean *no* influence, or just no *bad* influence?
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Stefan Bohacekreplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@evan Initially I meant bad influence, but since I don't trust them at all, and not necessarily having foresight of how each change can manifest itself in the future, I'd prefer no direct influence.
I'm sure there's a ton we can learn from Meta's experience, and from Twitter's, etc, and if the community deems certain features useful, sure, let's implement those.
But I'd rather those ideas come from people I can trust having good intentions.
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Stefan Bohacek last edited by
@stefan so far? No. They've been great, super helpful, the Policy team has held consultations with hundreds of people in the Fediverse. I and others have spent time answering questions and providing support to their technical team. They come to events like Fediforum.
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Stefan Bohacekreplied to Stefan Bohacek last edited by
@evan And yes, for the sake of simplicity, let's focus on their potential influence of the ActivityPub spec itself.
Again, surely they'll push for ads, and I'm sure many will be okay with that.
What next, data collection?
I don't necessarily have the knowledge of determining the damage they can cause if everyone goes along with what they'll suggest. So I'd rather just be safe and not chance it.
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Stefan Bohacekreplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@evan Right, let me rephrase.
None of Meta's actions listed in Erin's article were deal breakers preventing Meta from joining SWF. Perhaps it's because the technical expertise of the engineers who are directly involved is more important than decisions taken by the company's leadership, who are not. Maybe they even stood up against the leadership, unsuccessfully.
Fair.
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@puppygirlhornypost2 @stefan no, it's "*they* might choose not to federate with *you*, or anyone except a small set of allowlisted servers, and then you're cut off from the network and you also don't have a voice in how the network grows."
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Stefan Bohacekreplied to Stefan Bohacek last edited by
@evan What if, to use an absurd example to make a point, what if Meta starts to allow CSAM on Threads? Would they be kicked off SWF?
I just wonder, going back to my example with the Olympics, why not accept contributions from trustworthy individuals without *seemingly* condoning actions of their employer?
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Evan Prodromoureplied to Stefan Bohacek last edited by
@stefan I don't think it makes sense to truck in hypotheticals.
I appreciate this conversation with you, and I hope you feel free to contact me again in the future.
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@anildash @evan @wendinoakland Right, and I am definitely more open to the idea of maybe some day federating with Threads, or even Bluesky, and don't judge people who already do that now.
But that shouldn't be tied to Meta being a member of SWF or any other group or organization that can influence ActivityPub.
Maybe when I said influence *fediverse*, I was being a bit too vague, but as I had a chance to explain myself more clearly, this is what the issue is for me.
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Stefan Bohacekreplied to Evan Prodromou last edited by
@evan Fair enough! I appreciate you engaging with critical voices in the community, and I look forward to reconnecting again.