#BlueSky isn't decentralised or federated.

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

IMHO: #BlueSky isn't decentralised or federated. The outage on 2024-11-14 is obvious proof. It may *look* decentralised and they definitely love to outsource traffic/storage costs by claiming that running your own PDS (Personal Data Server) is somehow something federated, but that's all smoke and mirrors. You have to go deep on [1] to find "networking through Relays instead of server-to-server" as their current implementation choice. THEY run the relays. No one else.

[1] https://bsky.social/about/blog/5-5-2023-federation-architecture

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

It's well hidden, but in Bluesky the Relay system, AppView and identity layer PLC are centralised parts.

The posts you see come from the AppView. The AppView gets its data from the Relay. The Relay gets its stuff rom the PDSes. So you always go through the relay. No direct connection from AppView to PDS. Yes, they promise that in future you might be able to run your own relay. But right now and since its inception, Bluesky runs the relay system you connect to. I call that centralised.

Rob

@jwildeboer

This is a question from someone who uses a host service for my Mastodon node.

I tried setting up a relay on my tiny instance and the server instantly had issues. So, in practice, Mastodon relays don't work for me. To that end, I believe my Mastodon setup is close to this diagram. No?

Rob

@jwildeboer
I understand that. But what is the architectural difference?

You highlighted the Relay in your post. And I am saying, "I don't have access to Mastodon relays." So why is Mastodon better?

Trying to understand your objection.

Rob

@jwildeboer

Is it that BlueSky *REQUIRES* a relay and Mastodon does not?

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

@rob Yes. And the Labeler. As the diagram shows, there is no direct connection from PDS (Personal Data Store) to the AppView/FeedGen.

Pete Keen

@jwildeboer the PLC service is also centralized with no plans to allow federation afaict, which is problematic as your did:plc is your true handle and the PLC service maps handle <=> display name. There is a did:web as well but there isn't a migration path between them.

mkj

@rob ActivityPub relays are specifically to exchange large number of posts between many different instances. That requires a good bit of horsepower and Internet bandwidth; and connecting to one means your instance is suddenly getting a lot more traffic. That's good for some things, bad for others.

You can run a single-user Fediverse instance *just fine* without ever touching an ActivityPub relay, in which case you'll see (and basically only see) posts from those you follow.

@jwildeboer

Rob

@mkj @jwildeboer

I ported my Twitter account to Mastodon to one of the larger servers (techhub.social) which likely has a relay. Then I moved to my own instance. Those 2 hops gave me some people to follow. That’s likely why others on my server don’t post much.

Circling back to the #bluesky discussion. What good are distributed relays if they aren’t available to everyone (because of the costs)?

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

@rob I also run my own instance. I tried using a relay long ago, but it only filled up my storage with posts I never read. Following hashtags to find new people to follow helped me a lot. Also looking at the list of people that accounts I like are following helps. My home timeline is very diverse and interesting now, without relays. @mkj

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

And as I am experimenting with local AI and run one of the #Granite models on my laptop, I asked it about the difference between Mastodon and Bluesky. Well:

"The main difference between Mastodon and Bluesky is that Mastodon is a decentralized platform with local instances, while Bluesky is a centralized platform with a single, global network."

Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋

@jwildeboer you can absolutely run your own relay and people have already done that for testing at least

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

@mackuba Sure. At some point in the future all of Bluesky will be fully decentralised and reach federation levels that the ActivityStream already has And that point is a moving target since years.

Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋

@jwildeboer I won't argue that it isn't as decentralized in practice as AP right now, I'm just saying that "they promise that in future you might be able to run your own relay" is misleading, because you can do that today

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

@mackuba And, as you said, that is for testing ATM. And the other argument with the did:plc still stands. Anyway, right now Bluesky is by all practical means centralised and I am not convinced that will really change. ATProto stays a proprietary, non-open standard, owned by a non-open organisation, not a community or SSO (Standard Setting Organisation) IMHO.

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

@mackuba "The author mentions that setting up a Relay requires around 4.5 TB of disk space, and that it’s growing by around 18 GB a day. However, that was said before the most recent bump in growth. The data and processing requirements will only accelerate as more people use the service." - https://anderegg.ca/2024/11/15/maybe-bluesky-has-won

Jiří Fiala Total Landscaping

@mackuba @jwildeboer relay, yes. So Bsky is just offloading networking costs onto the users, while keeping power.

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

@stooovie Same with hosting your own PDS. However, Bluesky/atproto relays demand A LOT of resources. 4-5TB of storage with a growth rate of around 20GB/day, so while technically you can run your own relay, practically it doesn't make sense in its current form. @mackuba

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

The more I look at ATproto, the "standard" behind Bluesky, the more I see vague promises of full decentralisation and federation that "currently" are implemented in centralised ways, because "right now" they "unfortunately" have to do it that way. No clear roadmap on when these centralised elements will be removed/replaced. Now if a "standard" allows for such fundamental deviations, I cannot take it serious. That's just me, though.

Jan Wildeboer 😷:krulorange:

I also fail to see a lot of community uptake on creating alternative implementations of ATproto. Compared to the creative chaos around ActivityPub/ActivityStreams it definitely feels more like a walled garden.